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Catechizing Conversations
Podcast Description
A ministry of Victa Leadership and Lebanon Valley PCA
Catechizing Conversations is a podcast devoted to teaching the historic Reformed confessions—Westminster, Heidelberg, Belgic, and more—helping believers understand and live out the deep truths of confessional Christianity. Rooted in Scripture and the rich theological tradition of the Reformation, each episode offers accessible teaching and meaningful discussion. We also feature interviews with local ministry leaders throughout Lebanon County, highlighting the work Christ is doing in our community and encouraging connection within the broader body of Christ.
Catechizing Conversations
Why The Health And Wealth Gospel Warps Faith (Part 3)
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If someone tells you God’s will is always your wealth and perfect health, what does that say about Jesus, the apostles, and faithful Christians lying in hospital beds right now? We take a careful look at why the health and wealth gospel (prosperity gospel, Word of Faith teaching) is not a harmless emphasis but a different message that reshapes the meaning of faith, grace, blessing, and healing into a spiritual transaction.
We start with a simple contrast: biblical faith is receiving and resting on Christ for salvation, not a technique for unlocking a higher income or a diagnosis-free life. Then we follow Scripture’s own warning that deception often rises from inside the church, not outside it. Acts 20’s image of “fierce wolves” helps explain why prosperity teaching spreads so easily through Christian networks and why it can feel familiar even when it’s twisting the gospel.
From there we press into the hard questions. Why does Paul treat a different gospel as accursed in Galatians? What happens to the story of Jesus as the suffering servant if poverty and suffering are always framed as a curse? How do we make sense of Job, the persecuted church, and Paul’s unanswered plea about his thorn in the flesh? We also respond to the claim that “suffering” in the Bible only means persecution, and we talk about the real Christian hope of total healing in the life to come without blaming sufferers today.
Subscribe for the next conversation, share this with a friend who needs clarity, and leave a review so more people can find it. What’s the most convincing prosperity claim you’ve heard, and how did you answer it?
Welcome And Defining True Faith
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Catechizing Conversations. My name is Sisko Victor, pastor at Lebanon Valley Presbyterian Church, right here in Lebanon County, Pennsylvania, and I'm joined today by Micah, who is the lead staff at Disciple Makers Lebanon Valley College. Welcome.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here again.
SPEAKER_00Yep. As well. So working with Disciple Makers, which is a great ministry that you're doing. And Mike and I have teamed up together to do these podcasts on the danger of the health and wealth gospel. And in last episode, we were attempting to define what the health and wealth gospel is. It has different names health and wealth, prosperity gospel, word of faith. But it's the idea that God will bless you with material prosperity, physical health when you have faith. And it's found a home in many Protestant communities and many churches today. And we want to address it as a false doctrine that it is. In the last episode, we were talking about how they will use terminology that is Christian terminology, true biblical terminology such as faith and grace and healing and blessing and so forth, but their definitions are vastly different. So they'll use faith, and this is a huge thing, of course, word of faith. So it's if you have faith, you'll be healed. If you have faith, God will prosper you. And I had mentioned that that was vastly different than the biblical understanding of faith. And so after our first episode, I looked at the sort of catechism, question 86: what is faith in Jesus Christ? And a beautiful answer Faith in Jesus Christ is a saving grace whereby we receive and rest upon him alone for salvation as he is offered to us in the gospel. So no mention there of Alexis or Mercedes. So so they use they they use biblical words, but this is the danger of heresy, this is the danger of false doctrine, is that it has a di a entirely different framework of what that word means. Right.
Wolves Rising From Within The Church
SPEAKER_00Now, as we press on in this topic, we tend to look for theological danger out there somewhere, don't we? And I'm speaking of as the church, like the New Age movement, various cults, Jehovah's Witness, Mormonism, Buddhism, you know, all the isms, all the various cults. So we tend to look out there, right? Like this is where the danger is. But scripture often says that the greatest deception is not going to come from outside the church, but from within it. Acts 20, verse 29, the elders are being addressed by the Apostle Paul. Michael, will you read that for us? Acts 20, verse 29.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It says, I know that after my departure, fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things to draw away the disciples after them.
SPEAKER_00So that's a sober warning, isn't it? It's a sober warning for us. It's a sober warning for our churches, for our ministries, that wolves will come in, but they're they're not coming from without and they're coming in from among us. And Paul's metaphor here is should make us shudder, right? They're not gonna spare the flock.
SPEAKER_02Yeah and they're they're fierce. They have a plan. They're they're ready to strike and to devour.
SPEAKER_00And and there's and they can be identified, and then that they're going to be men speaking twisted things to draw away the disciples after them. So the point, one of the points here is it's going to be from among from among ourselves, it's gonna be from the inside. This is where Paul says to look for fierce wolves for false doctrine. And so when we look at the word of faith movement, the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, it has come from within in a sense, and in that it's people who claim to be Christians, people who would say that they are alert for deception and apostasy, but perhaps they're looking in the wrong place. The wolf is already in the sheepfold. So
Famous Preachers And Global Influence
SPEAKER_00when we talk about the health and wealth of the gospel, we're talking about ministries that ha literally have millions of followers, don't they? Right? Can you give us some names of where this is prominent?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I think about Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, Kenneth Hagen, that left maybe he's already has passed, but Clef O'Dollar, even to a little bit more moderate guys that are either swimming in the same waters or would agree with with the method methodology, but those are some that I think about now. And I don't know if you're thinking about other people.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Now I mean you have Paula White, who has the ear of the president of the United States, or has been defined as a spiritual advisor to the president of the United States, is a health and wealth gospel preacher. So we're talking about a vast problem. And these are powerful mega ministries, but it's it's it's found its its way into small churches in the country. I I'll never forget when I took a mission trip to Cambodia. I was out in literally in the jungle. And I I felt like I was in a ready to be in a Vietnam War movie, you know, because it was you could see them harvesting rice, you know, in the in the blazing sun, and and uh the church was just uh just barely had a roof that was put together. It was that kind of roof. I mean, in our comparison to us in the West, I mean absolute poverty. But they were joyous believers, they were both joyous believers in Christ. But I never remember I would never forget that the pastor's wife took out a DVD of a preacher called Jesse DuPlanis, and was just going on and on praising this preacher. She didn't know. But I thought, look how we've exported this junk all over the world. And Jesse DuPlanis is also one of these health and wealth prosperity gospel preachers, and how sad it was that that kind of doctrine found itself literally in a jungle in Cambodia. That is really sad. And so you and you see it, you see the influence of these preachers in churches where the pastor is struggling and the church is struggling, and yet they're they're latching on to this because, as we talked in the last episode, it promises it more than it can deliver. It promises if you do certain things and God is going to bless you to this level of prosperity. But we want to note Paul's language in Galatians that he doesn't gently redirect these teachers. He doesn't dialogue with them charitably, he calls them accursed. And in Galatians 5, 4, he says, you are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law, you have fallen away from grace. So severed from Christ, fallen from grace, these are the consequences Paul attaches to believing a different gospel. So this is not one of those matters where we're agreeing to disagree, right? And I think we, Micah, we mentioned this last episode that there are those matters uh where we agree to disagree. Mode of baptism or infant baptism versus believers baptism. Eschatology. Eschatology is a big one, right? Multiple views there. But Paul is not agreeing to disagree with these false teachers in Galatia. And we're saying also we can't agree to disagree with the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel. It is a false gospel, it is a different gospel.
Why Prosperity Teaching Is Another Gospel
SPEAKER_00Yes. What makes it so?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's it's a direct attack to the grace of Christ. And I would argue to the heart of the message of the gospel. And as we've been saying, it's a different gospel. It's a gospel fully based on ourselves and how we can prosper here and now, and not on what Christ has accomplished. And and what Christ has accomplished is a means to receive what we want from him, not necessarily a means for us to humble ourselves and see our need for him. And there's so much more that we we could say, but it is a it's also a direct attack to the biblical narrative. Jesus specifically, where he was the suffering servant. So what's I mean, how what do you do with that in that sort of theological framework where like Christ emptied himself, Philippians chapter two, of of power and authority, that that for our sakes he became poor so that we would be rich in him, right? Like all of these passages to show that that Christ completely and utterly emptied himself and was born in a backwatered town in poverty.
SPEAKER_00And Mary and Joseph didn't have the the offering to give in the temple. Right, showing that they were poor. They had to get the lowest offering that was possible.
SPEAKER_02Correct, yeah. So so I I do think that it it actually diminishes part of, if we really go even fur really far here, it it diminishes the personhood of Christ and calls it cursed and evil, because they would argue, as we would probably get to eventually, that poverty is a curse. So if we go and navigate with that understanding that they're bringing to the table, then Christ was cursed in his humanity before he, you know, took our sin in the cross and was cursed for us, as as Romans, as the Apostle Paul says, specifically even in Romans. But they would believe that even before the cross, Jesus was cursed because he was cursed by God in poverty, which again that would almost diminish a lot of his identity and his ministry. And and of course, then we'll call call to mind a bunch of other things, right? Like, what about Job? What about all of the apostles? They suffered and died, Paul, you know, the thorn in the side. I mean, there's so many things that we can like bring to the table, but uh, this is just a couple things of like it it really just diminishes the spiritual, not the spiritual, but the the really the account of scripture and what it says.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you're saying Jesus wouldn't be welcomed in one of these prosperity gospel preaching churches. I mean, he wouldn't fit the mold of what they're painting for people.
SPEAKER_02Right. I don't think anybody in the New Testament would.
SPEAKER_00No, no, Pharisees.
SPEAKER_02That's a good point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And and there were wealthy people in Scripture, and uh we we will get to this, uh but wealth is not something that should be disdained. We're we're not saying that you should disdain either wealth or health. I mean, you know, if you're sick, you you go to the doctor if you're you you work to be able to provide for your family and to give something to those in need, and and God in his providence makes people extremely wealthy and allows for people to be extremely wealthy. And and so we're not diminishing that and saying that that's wrong, but we are saying that this idea that if you follow God, he's guaranteeing you certain so-called blessings to give you the American dream.
Suffering, Sanctification, And Future Hope
SPEAKER_00Well what do we say to our brothers and sisters in the Middle East that suffer terribly by naming the name of Christ? Well, how does the prosperity gospel work there in Syria or or and uh Palestine? And and so it's such a deviation of not only scripture but what we see historically in the church.
SPEAKER_02I I thought about I thought about Philippians 3, 10, I ironically, where the Apostle Paul does say that we must share in the sufferings of Christ, which is insane to most people, but also in many occasions, I mean when you look at the Greek, Paul says that suffering is a grace, which is not necessarily what we would in essence say about suffering ever. We we don't want to suffer, and again, I'm not in essence saying suffering is amazing and we all love it. Right. We don't glorify suffering, but we know that suffering produces something, and it is a grace from God to grow us. I mean, we just have to read Romans 5, right? It it produces character, character produces hope, and hope doesn't put us to shame, right? So so that it does something to suggest so to say suffering is a curse, and that it is not from God but from the devil, which I'd love to get into more of eventually, because they would in essence say that it would be diminishing a lot of the suffering language that's in the New Testament. I think it's actually important, and Paul even tells us so much about that.
SPEAKER_00And we are going to get into it more, but let's touch on it for a little bit because the the prosperity gospel's retort would be suffering means persecution. So they'll say that doesn't mean sickness, that doesn't mean paralyzation, that doesn't mean sense of depression. That suffering is just strictly persecution. So yes, a Christian can be persecuted. They they probably think this podcast is persecuting them now, right? Like anyone speaking out against them is persecution, but why is that a wrong retort?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would say that it is a type of suffering, right? To to be to be accused for the name of Christ, etc. We do see that in the scriptures, but we also understand that even Isaiah 53 is just as it's referring to Jesus, it's not talking about persecution, it's talking about literal suffering. He is a suffering servant, sorrow, and yeah, sorrow in a lot of ways. And and again, we we have so many examples in scripture of people that literally suffered, right? Job being one of Job being an example of that. But if we just see in the New Testament, speaking directly just about Paul, right? Not even mentioning the fact that obviously Christ suffered in in so many ways, but just looking at the Apostle Paul, we we know that he wrestled with the Lord Jesus Christ about the thorn in his side, regardless of where our view is on what the thorn is in his side, right? What we do know is that he pleaded and Jesus tells him, No, my grace is sufficient for you, right? Because in his weaknesses when the gospel will be exemplified. Now, my question is, did Paul have enough faith?
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Maybe he didn't, right?
SPEAKER_00According to the prosperity gospel, right?
SPEAKER_02He didn't have enough faith to get rid of that weakness, which is, I would argue, a very, very, very big accusation against not just the apostle Paul, but to the scriptures to say that Jesus was at the wrong for not healing Paul, though he asked, we would have to wrestle with that. We'd have to wrestle with the fact of does Jesus, does God give us suffering that is purposeful, that we might ask for it to be removed, and he says, No, even though you have enough faith, right? No, because he's utilizing for our good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it it seems in this the framework of the Health and Wealth Gospel that they want what glorification will bring now. You know, so what we believe there's coming a time when all of God's people will be healed of their diseases fully. There'll be no more cancer, there'll be no more paralyzation. Right. There'll there'll be no more death of children in a car accident. There's coming a time when he'll wipe away every tear from their eyes, right? And there'll be no more sorrow, no more death. And it seems that the Health and Wealth Gospel wants all of that now and is force feeding it in a way that says, if you do these certain things, you'll have it. And yet this is not what God has promised in this life, where we remain broken and we remain subject to tragedies. And and we're talking about how it's an affront to the scriptures, it's a front to the Apostle Paul himself, it's affront to Jesus, this health and wealth gospel. And I was thinking it's also affront to all of our brothers and sisters who right now are sitting in hospital, you know, lying in hospital bed, sick, who have debilitating diseases or ailments, our brothers and sisters who are physically disabled to say if they had enough faith, they would no longer have this. Instead of saying, God always does what is right. And even in the times of his frowning providence, he loves his children. And there will one day be a deliverance, and we long for that day. Amen. But that day for us may not be now. Yeah. I that's not gonna sell a lot of books, though.
SPEAKER_02No, it's not. Yeah, it's it's not.
SPEAKER_00And I that's not gonna get us on TV and have a multitude of followers.
Testing The God Always Heals Claim
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I I think about I I mentioned this uh individual the last episode, but the individual that came to campus to to speak with us, he brought up a very similar point of God always desiring to heal his people, and that it is his nature. He doesn't ever want illness or sickness. And and and I guess in part we would be like, well, sure, but he does, and we don't fully understand many times why he allows suffering, but he goes and gives me this metaphor, which if you aren't careful, this metaphor could actually convince anyone and be like, actually, you know what? Yeah, that's that's true. He gave me a metaphor of imagine if you have children and your child is sick. And he posed the question to me and said, If your child is sick, would you want him to be healed if he would be begging you for a very long time to be healed and you had the capability to do it? And I'm like, Of course, it's my child. I would want to do that. And he's like, Exactly, and that's exactly the same thing with God. So, God, when you ask him, he always wants to heal and he always will, it's dependent on will you call out to him and will you believe that he does it? How would you answer that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, well, I would answer that he is putting on God man. I mean, he he's ref he's reflecting man onto God. You know, my answer would be I'm not God. So, yes, as a father, of course I want my child to be well. And but I'm not God. And that's making God in our own image. So the metaphor falls apart. God, his ways are higher than our ways, his thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and yeah, there's a Lot we that happens in life we don't understand. There's a lot that happens to good people, to Christian people, that we sorrow over and we lament, as you've already said, we're not trying to glorify suffer glorify suffering or tragedy or s or sickness. But we know that God is sovereign and we are not. And we know that we live in a broken world, and we know that this is not the time of glorification. This is the time of justification and sanctification. And as you so rightly said, suffering often helps produce that sanctification in us. And again, we always go back to God does what is right. Will not the judge of the earth do what is right? May not be right in my eyes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00And we we we acknowledge that and and how God lifts up certain authorities and government and takes down others, and and there's times we say, That's not the that's not who we would have lifted up, right? That's not who I would have chosen, but we yield to God. He is God and I'm not. And and I think a part of this problem in the health and wealth gospel is they do have this theology that you are a little God.
SPEAKER_02And that could be a whole episode in itself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So if you're a little god, that's where you start to get, I I command healing over you, I name and claim it. I uh you know, I mean, and and the audacity to speak like that.
SPEAKER_02I I think about 1 Peter chapter 1, verse 6 to 8, where he says, In this you rejoice now for a little while. If necessary, you've been grieved by various trials. So that, here's the reason, so that the tested genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold, that perishes though it is tested by fire, may be found to result in the praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, but you love him, though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy, that is inexpressible and filled with glory. It's I mean, it's the Apostle Peter is in essence saying that trials and being grieved is connected to a tested genuineness of our faith now as as gold is is melted, you know, in in fire to purify and get rid of its imperfections and impurities, is the way that the Christian is also put through trials and pain and fiery situations to to burn off all of our, if you want to say, idols or even all of the impurities that are in us, right? Like he I think that's clear. And I, you know, I would argue what do we do with that too?
SPEAKER_00Sure. Yeah, and Peter's writing to a suffering people in that epistle, tremendously suffering people, which again, I think really shows that this health and wealth gospel is a gospel meant for the West. It's an American gospel that unfortunately, as we said, has been propagated and and shipped all over the world today, and even in c third world countries, where really speaks to the fact that we're longing for things to be made right in this broken world. We're we're longing for the sick to be healed and poverty to end, and that day is coming. And Christ is the one who will bring it, not any televangelist.
Next Episode Teaser And Final Warning
SPEAKER_00Well, we we appreciate you joining with us today. We're dealing with the subject what's so dangerous about the health and wealth gospel. And in coming episodes, what we intend to do is to trace the to the roots of this word of faith movement. We may be surprised where those roots lead. Where did this all begin? We want to examine these doctrines that are purported by the healing and the prosperity, the so-called faith movement. And in the next episode, we're going to dig into some of those origins and some of those teachings that you hear from these health and wealth gospel preachers. And the purpose of this is to call us back to the Word of God. Colossians 2.8 says, See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. Well, thank you for joining us for this special edition of Catechizing Conversations as we talk about what's so dangerous about the health and wealth gospel. We trust that you'll join us again, and the Lord bless you.
