Delivered From the Health and Wealth "Gospel" (Part 2)--- Cisco Shares His Testimony

Prosperity theology doesn’t just get a few verses wrong, it shrinks the gospel until Jesus becomes a means to a better lifestyle. We open with a blunt warning: the health and wealth gospel promises what God never guaranteed, then leaves wounded people to carry the blame when the promise fails. If you’ve ever wondered why this movement keeps growing, or why it feels so convincing in the moment, we name the real pull and the real harm.

We dig into Costi Hinn’s firsthand account from inside the Word of Faith world, where luxury, celebrity, and stage-managed “miracles” can look like God’s favor. Cisco and Micah talk through the slow “cracks” that expose the system: the uneasy contrast between opulence and struggling staff, and the sobering reality of crusades where sick and suffering people arrive desperate and leave unchanged. That tension forces a question prosperity preaching can’t answer without blaming the victim: if faith is a controllable force, why doesn’t it work for everyone?

Then Cisco shares his own story of theological shift, including the books and sermons God used to reorient his faith toward the sovereignty of God and Christ-centered, expository preaching. We talk candidly about what it can cost to walk away: lost networks, financial hardship, and lonely years of rebuilding. We also address the common jab that confessional churches “don’t believe in the Spirit” and explain why a biblical doctrine of the Holy Spirit rejects counterfeit spirituality while longing for true revival through Word, prayer, and the means of grace.

If you want clarity, courage, and practical next steps for testing teaching by Scripture, press play. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find a richer gospel than prosperity promises.

Transcript

A Warning Against Prosperity Theology

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Prosperity theology is a false gospel. Its message is unbiblical and its promises fail. God never assures his people of material abundance or physical health. Instead, Christians are promised the riches of Christ, the gift of eternal life, and the assurance of glory in the eternal presence of the living God. In the end, the biggest problem with prosperity theology is not that it promises too much, but that it promises far too little. The gospel of Jesus Christ offers salvation from sin, not a platform for earthly prosperity. While we should seek to understand what drives so many into this movement, we must never for a moment fail to see its message for what it is a false and failed gospel. Those are words from Albert Moller, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Costi Hinn And Life Inside Word Of Faith

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Well, welcome back to Catechizing Conversations. My name is Cisco Victor. I'm pastor at Lebanon Valley PCA here in Lebanon County. And my guest today is Micah. Micah is lead staff for Disciple Makers at Lebanon Valley College. Welcome, Micah. Happy to be here again. Yeah, welcome back. So we're back here tackling this subject of the Health and Wealth Gospel, why it is dangerous. And so since the last time we we met and did those first few podcasts, I read Costi Hinn's book, where I'm almost at the end of this book by Costi Hinn entitled God, Greed and the Prosperity Gospel, How Truth Overwhelms a Life Built on Lies. At first, when I first broke it open, I thought, ah, I'm not gonna like this. It's like a story, you know. Give me facts, give me doctrine. But once I started reading, I couldn't put it down. It's just an amazing uh story of his testimony of how he came out of the Word of Faith Prosperity Gospel. And that last name, Hinn, of course, may uh cause you to think of Benny Hinn, and that was his uncle, or is his uncle. And he worked within that network from a child all the way up to a young man. But his story is is really amazing because he's on the inside of this movement, and it's over time where he starts to question things. You read you read the book as well. What what were your thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 3:12

Yeah, I I really enjoyed it. And if you even listen to a lot of interviews that he's done, and really how he shares his testimony online on YouTube, there's a lot of parts of that that are present even in in the book. And I was specifically, I specifically loved the section about why are you letting the Baptist the Baptists corrupt you?

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Or no, it's it's called don't let the those Baptists brainwash you.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Yeah, yeah. It's a whole chapter, right?

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Yeah, it's a whole chapter. And I thought that was really great. He starts off by you know quoting Archie Sproul, if God is not sovereign, then God is not God. And he he spends a lot of time in that chapter talking about really the aspect of God's sovereignty and how it goes directly against the prosperity gospel. And I thought it was really insightful. Uh, but his story is this powerful to being with his uncle in a lot of these crusades, if you want to call them, and being the man in the back that's in essence holding people from falling, right? Or even being part of the thing. Catching them, a catcher. I guess. Yeah, catcher. Yeah. It's yeah, from being in that world to then speaking against it in love, I would I would say.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yeah, he opens his his book with that, that he loves his family, loves his parents. It must have been hard to make that break. And in fact, that's part of the story is just how he goes from being immersed in that world and almost not able to get out. But by God's good grace, he he does go to a Baptist school, he goes to Baptist college to play baseball. He yeah, he meets some people who confront him with scripture and it changes his life. And and so go get the book. You know, like we're we're doing this podcast, but I I I read the book and I thought this is a book I'd love to get in the hands of people who are

Cracks In The System Of Miracles

SPEAKER_00 5:20

in this prosperity gospel word of faith world. Read it with an open mind. A couple things that stood out to me from Costi Hinn's book was how the change didn't happen overnight. Yeah. Like he he brings you through that there's cracks that come over time that question this whole world that he's been brought up in. And one was that he he looked at how they were living in extreme wealth with Hummers. I mean, he's a young kid with a Hummer, you know, high school student driving around a Hummer and goes to college with a Hummer, and you know, they're staying in luxurious hotels, they've got plenty of money, going on shopping trips, dropping tens of thousands of dollars. And one of the first cracks is he begins to question why are we living like this? And yet the people who are working for us are struggling to survive. You know, he mentions people that are coming to help the Benning ministry who are just living living on it to make ends meet week after week, and yet here they are in this opulence. And that's that's one thing where he's like, okay, he starts to question, like why. But you know, then that whole system though always brings you back, well, it's because we have great faith. Right. Maybe they are just growing in their faith, so they're not rich like us yet. But he does start to question. Another thing that stood out to me is he begins to question when he's in a a big crusade in India. Literally there were millions of people at this crusade with Benny Hinn. And he looks out at all of the sick people that are coming, that are in this massive crowd, children who are blind, who are crippled, on and on and on. And he watches them, of course, come crippled and blind and leave crippled and blind. And he asks why. And you know, so that was a second crack in the in the foundation. Why weren't they all healed? You know, and and you can imagine just the in the extreme poverty of India and certain places, just the the great need that is there. And yet so many walk away without without what they came for. And then maybe the most significant you alluded to is he goes to a Baptist school, he starts hearing expository preaching, and that's radically different than what he was brought up in in that charismatic word of faith world.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

Yeah, he actually quotes the same quote from Al Moeller that you read in the beginning of this podcast, as in in that chapter.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Right. So so for me it's like look so the light was was pressing through the cracks and eventually broke through, and now we have this wonderful testimony from Costi Hinn, and he's he's I believe turning many people away from that heretical and and erroneous teaching to the true gospel. He he is a Reformed Baptist, so we'll we'll forgive him for that. But his his story resonates with me.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

How so? Yeah, tell us how does it resonate with you specifically?

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Well, it's not because my story as is as dramatic as his. I never was flying in private jets and staying in luxurious hotels. But I went through a theological shift in my life as a as a young man in my early 30s. And what I resonate with him's story is that it it was a process. It didn't all come at once. And Arminianism, and you know, that was my base, Pentecostalism. But where I am today, it it that that happened over time. You know, the the change was slow, but still dramatic.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Well, I I I would love to hear just how you progress from beginning in a Pentecostal home and now being a pastor of a PCA church, which is uh I would I would argue a very drastic transformation in a lot of ways that most people would probably argue, right, as they're listening to this, is like, well, Cisco, how did that happen? First of all, right. And second, does that mean that now that you're Presbyterian, that you just don't believe in anything that the Spirit does anymore?

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yeah, that's a great

Cisco’s Conversion And Pentecostal Roots

SPEAKER_00 10:07

question. And this is the first time that I'm sharing this story, but I I guess I gotta go early to where it started. I I came to Christ as a seven-year-old boy. And leading up to that day, I remember very clearly one time laying on my bed, and and Jimmy Swagger of all people was preaching on the television. And he was, from what I can recall, as a seven-year-old, he was preaching on the cross, he was preaching Christ, he was preaching that we're sinners, all have sinned, and we need to be, we need to turn to Christ for salvation. There is no hope with that in anyone else. And I remember just tears streaming down my face as I listened to that sermon. And it wasn't long after that that I had prayed with my my father, Bill Jackson, in New Jersey, and I had prayed what's often called the sinner's prayer. And when I opened my eyes, I told him that the grass was greener and the sky was bluer. And I remember to this day, it was like the the sky was vibrant blue, the grass was vibrant green. And then I said to my mom and dad, I feel like the whole world has been lifted off my shoulders. And they laugh to this day about that because uh how much world is on the shoulders of a seven-year-old, yeah. But that that's the the legitimacy of the fact that we're born into sin. And I did. I felt like the whole world was lifted off my shoulders. There was no question in my mind from that day forward, I was a Christian. And so I grew up in an Assemblies of God church. My pastor, his name was Sam Montagano. He was a retired Italian iron worker, just a tough man, a man of really strong, deep conviction. He preached the word Sunday after Sunday with urgency and took me under his wing. He'd take me out visitation at hospitals. I'll never forget I had a big Bible with me. And uh he said, Young man, put that big Bible away. You're not gonna come in there and clear out the hospitals. You know, you want to bring a small Bible. So he was giving me some practical wisdom. But he was a good pastor. I would say in some ways he probably was a hellfire and brimstone preacher, but he truly believed that Christ was coming back again and you better be right with God and you better turn to Christ. And he believed in holiness and and I should say he he he was Pentecostal, but he he had a disdain for the health and wealth gospel. You know, as a young man, I didn't know what that was really, but I I remember him telling me, stay away from these kind of things, stay away from these kind of preachers. And I don't I wouldn't fully appreciate that till much later. So I went to a small Bible college in in Charleston, Maine. And I was a Bible college made up of Assemblies of God, Church of God of Tennessee, and then independent Pentecostals. And uh a lot of young people zealous for the Lord, zealous to make a big impact. And that's the first time that I came across the book from Kenneth Hagen.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Hmm. What was your impression of the book? Yeah, what do you remember remember being impactful?

SPEAKER_00 13:16

I remember he was writing about Mark V and the woman with the issue of blood that had suffered for many years and then came and touched Jesus and him his garment. So the book was exciting to me because I wanted to see people healed. You know, I I wanted to see things like that. I wanted to see God move. You know, as Pentecostals, we talked a lot about God moving and the move of the Spirit. You know, I I wanted to make an impact with the gospel. So I was, yeah, I it was exciting to me. And and the president of the school saw that I was reading the book, and he came over and put his hand on my shoulder. His name was Dr. Russell Peer, and he said, Young man, eat the meat and spit out the bones. Now, you know, his age, he would have been from the era of Kenneth Hagan. Right. So he must have known there were problems. But that was his word of exhortation. And now looking back, it was all bones.

unknown 14:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

I mean, other than just the script anytime where the scripture is quoted in a book, well, that that's the meat, but the explanation of it was bones. And now I had a pro a professor in school, his name was Dr. Frank Shaw. He took a stronger stance when he knew I was starting to read these things, and and he said these guys are heretics. So he wasn't diplomatic like Dr. Pier was. He, you know, he he warned me about these Hagens and Copelands and Fred Price's and you know, all those names. But me being young and zealous, and what what does you know, what does an old professor know? So I kind of latched onto it, and and I was influenced by those writings and and those teachings and and and my early pastoral career.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

What do you think drove you to be excited about just this area of theology? Like what drew you in? You kind of mentioned that it was, you know, you wanted people to be healed. Did was there more of like you didn't see a lot of that in your ministry, and maybe other people were talking about it and you wanted to experience that? Like how did yeah, how did it be?

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Yeah, I don't know. Of course, we were young, young, so it wasn't there was no ministry, you know. Um I I think it was just the allure of a move of God where great things are happening. I I think we mentioned in a previous uh podcast that you know we long for experience.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

We like experience. I've come to find out now. I mean, the Puritans believed in experiential religion, so we're not anti-experience, but we put too much emphasis on experience. There's no no doubt about that. We had too much emphasis on the subjective and not the objective. And yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:10

That's good. So so you were reading them. So what brought the change?

What Shattered The Formula Faith

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yeah, well, several several years into my ministry, my my wife and I married, we had a young family. I was a I was a pastor in New Hampshire. And I was around that word of faith environment and influenced by it. And this is where I start to really resonate with Costi Hinn's story, because it it was never one thing that brought about the change in my life and in my ministry. It was a a cascading series of events, slow, it was gracious, it was sovereign, and it was a sovereign unrav unraveling. So there's a few things. One, and I don't know how, but I came across a book called The Sovereignty of God by A. W. Pink. Oh, yeah, it's an amazing book. So you can imagine as an Arminian, as a Pentecostal, as a word of faith guy, this book was like just a hammer. I mean, it was just like getting punched by Mike Tyson. I mean, I was totally disoriented reading this. That God is sovereign over all things. You know, yeah, I because I I view word of faith as Arminianism on steroids. Yeah. You know, it's there's a lot of well we're not Arminius, but we have brothers in in in the faith who are minion of sort. But word of faith uh prosperity gospel is Arminianism on steroids. It it's you're gonna twist the arm of God by your faith. So when I read A.W. Pink's book, it that's that was the beginning because he introduced that God is not a God of formulas. He's not a God who can be activated by correct confession. He is the God of Isaiah 46, that he declares the end from the beginning, his counsel will stand, he will accomplish all of his purpose. He is the one true God, he's not a godling who's hoping things will happen. If you could just get your act together, you know, and who's gonna raise you up and heal you, if you could just have enough faith.

unknown 18:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Or you'll prosper and not be broke if you do the right things. And he's he's sitting back saying, Oh, I'm so sorry that you can't get it together. You know, that this is not the God of the scriptures. So A. W. Pink's book, that was the beginning. The second thing, I started listening to Timothy Keller. Again, don't know how I came across him, his CDs, but I started listening to his sermons, and there were times I remember a few times where I was riding down the highway in New Hampshire, spaulding turnpike, and I literally had to pull the car over because I was crying so much. And I was unsafe to drive when you're crying like that much. So I'd pull the car over because Keller's messages would always point you to Christ. And I thought, how can a guy preach on giving to the poor and it comes back to Christ? You know, like everything comes back to Christ in his sermons. And so that was another marker for me where I was beginning to hear someone who was using the Bible not as a moralistic handbook or a self-help book for a better life. He was showing that the Bible is to point us to Christ.

SPEAKER_03 19:33

So so what you're what you're pointing at was what was void in not only the books that you were reading, but how your ministry was heading towards was a robust view of God's sovereignty and also a robust view of really the gospel and and how the gospel relates all of scripture, like bringing back to to Christ, that He is like he said himself that the law and the prophets and the Psalms are about me. Are about him. Yeah. Like that was the the biggest two things that you were like, well, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Yeah, the sovereignty of God, because I truly believe if someone gets a picture of the biblical view, the sovereignty of God, and the providence of God, it would blow this word of faith message to smithereens because it recognizes God is in control, and that means he's in control of the person who unfortunately falls sick or the tragedy. He's not a God who's trying to catch up and wishing things would or not would not happen. He is sovereign. He he not a not a hair is on our head that he doesn't know, right? Not a bird falls to the ground that he doesn't know. So the doctrine of the sovereignty of God and the promise of God would blow this stuff to some other reins. And then, yeah, secondly, was a Christ-centered message because now as you said, Jesus said, All the law and the prophets are about me. It wasn't the law and the prophets about me having a better life. Right, right. Getting a bigger home, even having a better marriage, which the gospel can do those things. The gospel can give you a better life in walking with the Lord, and it can certainly improve your marriage. But that's not the main point. The main point is I'm a sinner in need of salvation. That's the gospel. And Christ is the the head of the church, and and and he is what all of Scripture is pointing towards, both in the Old and the New Testament. Amen. So, yes, those were the two of two biggest things. And of course, when I heard Keller, I'm like, well, who is he affiliated with? And you know, it said PCA. I had no idea what a Presbyterian was, what the PCA was. But then anybody who was reformed, I started listening to. So John Piper, Sinclair Ferguson, John MacArthur, Reformed Baptist. As confessional Presbyterians, even though I didn't know what the difference between between the two was. Right. If it said reformed, I wanted to eat it up. So that those were really big markers.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, they were they were bringing a flavor of preaching and teaching that was, I guess, foreign to what you were used to.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Right. Oh yeah, because the more you're I think and and this isn't native to only Pentecostals, don't get me wrong. But I I think for many the scripture is approached either as a moralistic therapeutic handbook, Tell Me What I Can and Cannot Do and Make My Life Better and Happier. Or it's approached as a self-help manual, give me five steps for a better life, six steps for a better marriage, ten steps for being a better parent, and we approach the Bible as this glorified self-help book, which is equal to any self-help book you could go and get at Barnes and Nobles or on Amazon, right? Like how to be a better person. And then a third marker was we had a small church in Merrimack, New Hampshire. And we had a guest speaker, and he was one of these word of faith evangelists.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

And this is before, just to clarify, that you had the church and had this guest speaker. Was this already you were listening to some of these reform guys, or was this before that?

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Yeah, it was happening simultaneously. Okay. Like it was all bunched up together.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

Okay, that's helpful.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Yeah, and then that's what I mean. Like it was it was chip chipping away at my worldview. And I think it's John Piper who said, when your worldview bursts, there will be tears. So that's what that was what's happening. And so this preacher came in and and we were a small church, you know. I mean, we struggled to survive, struggled to eke out a living, if you even want to call it that, you know, just struggling overall. And and this high-flying preacher came in and with his thousand dollar suit, and it was for the first time that I began to see this is manipulation. He's manipulating a so-called move of the spirit to take up an offering. And he had no problem taking up an offering from our small congregation and you know, laying hands on people and they're falling down. But that night was the first time I said, This is a mess. And I had never seen it before. I'd never seen it at that level. And I went home, went to my house, I sat on my porch, and I literally was sick to my stomach. I I just knew, I it's like my eyes were opened. And

From Man-Centered To Christ-Centered Ministry

SPEAKER_00 24:40

that night I said, I don't want to, I don't want to have anything to do with this. I don't care if I have to resign, I don't care if I have to go deliver newspapers, work at McDonald's. I do not want anything to do with this world anymore. And and I remember that night as long as I live, because it was a night of repentance for me. I I also repented. I said, Lord, I I repent for in any way endorsing or propagating this message. It it and that's really what we want to get across in these episodes. This is not something to play games with.

unknown 25:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Scripture tells us, be not many teachers, for we shall receive the stricter judgment. And when you're preaching a false gospel to God's people, his sheep, and also deceiving and leading the world astray, it's a very serious thing.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

Yeah, I mean, it was so serious that Paul wrote the book of Galatians. Yeah, that's right, right? So and he goes as far as to say that if anybody comes to you preaching a gospel contrary of the one that you've been taught or entrusted with, let that person be anathema, right? Like cut off. It's he took it seriously enough to write an entire letter to a church warning them. Um so yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Yeah, it it was, and that that sick feeling in my pit in my stomach. But it looking back is a beautiful night because I'm so glad that God rescued me from that world, and I'm I've been silent about it for a long time, but I think it's time to speak to it because I don't want to see people deceived. I've been behind the curtain, you know, I've been with the Fred Price's, I've I've been with don't think I ever met Kenneth Copeland, but I've been with some of these big names. I can name name them. I've been in their services, I've been in their green rooms, you know, the or the after party, so to speak, you know. So it's not I'm not speaking to something that I have no knowledge of or just reading it in someone's book. I've been there. And I know the pain that it causes not only this the sheep, but but pastors as well, who are duped by these things. Right. We're wasting time with a false gospel, just like you said from Galatians. Why would we waste time with a false gospel? As I was thinking about this, there was fourth marker, if you will, and uh that was a book of all people, Charles Swindah. Now, I don't think Charles Swindle is a Calvinist. I think he's a free will Baptist.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

Yeah, he is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

But he wrote a book called Grace Awakening. And in the book, he talks about the Tower of Babel as opposed to the call of Abraham. And there's five I've wills in the Tower of Babel. I we will do this, we will do that, we'll do this, we're gonna build this. He contrasts it with what God calls Abraham, and God says, I will make you a great nation, I will bless you. And he juxtaposes the two and says there's a man-centered message and there's a God-centered message. And when I read that short section in Grace Awakening by Charles Swindah, that was another like light that went on. I sat there in my library, I looked up at my books, and most of them were self-help-oriented, leadership-oriented books. I'm not against leadership books, but they were all man-centered. And you talked about this in one of our podcasts, Christianizing these pagan terms, or you know, dressing it up as Christian. How did you say that before? I I for I forget.

SPEAKER_03 28:23

Yeah, I mean it's it's getting pagan ideology and repackaging it. Exactly with Christianese. Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

So new thought, Christian science, you know, pop psychology, meshing that into the Christian message. And I looked at my shelf and I was like, I'm a man-centered preacher. I'm I'm I'm leading a man-centered ministry. Meaning that's the emphasis, always you, you, you, what you have to do or what what God will do for you. There wasn't a God-centeredness. There wasn't a Christ-centeredness. So that was another thing that just kind of I sat there, I threw away more books over the past years after that revelation, so to speak. Praise God. Yeah. And so and as I as I sat there thinking about Christ-centered as opposed to man-centered, I I said, I want to be a Christ-centered minister. I want to be a Christ-centered man. I mean, that was there was just a deep longing in me. He said, How many, how many sermons I've preached that are man-centered? I I don't I want to know what it means to lead always people to Christ as much as possible by by God's good grace. And may God be glorified. And you know, the whole w uh shorter catechism one-one, what's man's chief end? Man's chief end is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. So that's yeah, that's uh a little bit of my humble story.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

Thanks so much for sharing that. That's that's really helpful. And even you coming from, as you said, not just an observer of somebody else doing that or just reading books that inform you, but but you were in that world. You

The Cost Of Leaving And Relearning

SPEAKER_03 30:10

experienced it, you believed it, you advocated for it, you taught it. I think it's an invaluable resource to to to the church. Yeah. So I appreciate you sharing that.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Yeah, it's humbling to share it. I mean, it was a few years, uh, you know, I thank God I wasn't 10 years in that world, it was a few concentrated years, maybe two or three years. But when I come to these realizations scripturally, biblically, you know, I resigned my church in New Hampshire, and that was the beginning of several years of difficulty. How so it just was very difficult. You know, I didn't know I would listen to Presbyterians, but I didn't know a single Presbyterian. My whole network was where I came from. I had to not only resign my church, resign affiliations. It was a very, very lonely time. It was a very it was a time of financial hardship, of relational hardship, family hardship. God carried carried us through as a as a large family, but it was like, you know, I can't sugarcoat it at all. It was very difficult. And as I look back, you know, God was within his right to discipline me as well. And so I look back, it was a hard time. Man, maybe some of that was discipline, you know, maybe some of that was a spanking from God. And God is more merciful than man, you know, right? So it was several years, and and that I really dug in deep then into Reformed theology for several years, struggled to come to agreement with some of these hard doctrines, predestination, definite or limited atonement. That didn't happen overnight. No. And I I wondered, do I believe this? Can I believe this? John Owen's book, Death of Death and the Death of Christ, yeah, was a big one that sealed it for me. Really? Yeah. And and so from there it was just then providentially God leading me into finding actual PCA people, Presbyterian people. Like I didn't finally found out where these people were, you know. In fact, this funny story, my wife and I went to uh Manhattan and we went to where the address was for Timothy Keller, and we didn't know that they didn't own a church building, they just rented buildings. And here we walked in thinking we would meet Timothy Keller, you know. But that was the impact he made on my life. You know, he he never knew who I was and never will, and he's with the Lord now. But um, yeah, his preaching and then like I said, A. W. Pink and and uh others, others that God used to deliver me.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

I'd love to ask you two more questions. Sure. Willing.

Advice For Those Still Inside

SPEAKER_03 32:55

The first one being to anyone that's in that position right now, like you were pastoring and teaching and reading these books, and in essence, being convinced that this is the right way to go. This is scriptural. Uh what are just some pieces of advice that you would give them? Maybe one or two things.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Yeah, I would I would say first go before the Lord in humility. You know, if if you truly know the Lord, then go before Him in humility, and that's really what we all should be doing all the time. You know, the we're we align with the Reformation, we align with the Process of Reformation, and uh but but we're people of Reformation. In other words, we're always needing to be reformed. And that that includes me today. You know, where in my life am I not in line with the Word of God? Even though I'm PCA, even though I'm Presbyterian, doesn't mean I'm in line with the Word of God on every issue. You know, the the effects of the noetic fall, that our reason is corrupted. We constantly have to be renewed to truth. So what I would say to someone in that world is go before the Lord in humility, open the scriptures in humility, and say, Lord, reveal to me where I'm wrong. And uh don't don't double down on your long-held beliefs just because they were passed down to you from somebody. Challenge them with the word of God. Is this scriptural? And I think what you'll find real quick is that the answer is no. It is not scriptural to tell people that if you confess certain things they're gonna come to pass, if you give enough money, you're gonna make twist God's arm to do things for you. And none of these things are scriptural, it's it's a different religion. And that's one thing. The second thing is is get into some good solid teaching. You know, in a church that opens up the scripture and and is not there to excite you, is not there to entertain you, is there to teach you the word. You know, because there's a deconstruction process of the false teaching being deconstructed and the true teaching being built up into your life. And again, that doesn't happen overnight. We're renewed by the word of God, the transforming of our minds. So that would be the second advice I'd humbly give someone is to get in a context where you're being taught the word of God, not a celebrity-driven message, you know, or again, moralistic therapeutic self-help. No, I want to be taught, you know, read to me Habakkuk, you know, teach me Zechariah, what is that story? What's Galatians? I want the scripture.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

That's really insightful. Really insightful. I appreciate that. Well, last thing is, and I I kind of opened that when I asked the first question, but what would be the response that you would give to an individual that says, Man, you used to be, you used to have the unction. The you used to have the unction from the Lord, you you had ministry that was blessed, and you left that when things got hard. And now you're uh you're in the PCA, which is devoid of the spirit, and you guys don't believe in the you know any of the gifts, you don't believe the Holy Spirit's at work. You know, how would you respond to that accusation that we often received a ton of?

SPEAKER_00 36:28

Now that's

We Believe In The Holy Spirit

SPEAKER_00 36:29

a great question because it is misinformation. We believe in the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

Amen.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

The Bible believes in the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, and we believe in the unction of the Spirit to grant a preacher the unction to speak the word clearly, and we we know that no one comes to Christ without the Holy Spirit. We are people of the Spirit. In fact, it said to those that have really read John Calvin, he wrote more about the Holy Spirit than any other topic. He was a theologian of the Holy Spirit. But we want to have a proper understanding of the Holy Spirit, not a skewed understanding of the Spirit or something that's not the Spirit at all, which has been incorporated into Christianity from New Thought Movement, Eastern mysticism, the Spirit as a force. Right. Not a person. So that would be my first response is no, we believe in the Holy Spirit. I mean, uh, we're not a Christian without the Holy Spirit. Uh but it's a proper understanding. And and by the way, we believe in revival and awakening. Jonathan Edwards and and George Whitfield and and others that were part of moves where people turned to God in repentance, true repentance, but that's a big difference than trying to manufacture something. Trying to bring something down by your own strength and power in a finny type way. I would say that's a counterfeit revival. We need true revival, which is God using the means of grace, which is his word, prayer, the sacraments, and there's a blessing on them, and we see more people come to Christ, and we see Christians grow in in this most holy faith. Amen. Love that. Amen. Well, thanks, Micah, for taking this journey with me. Yeah, thank you. It's not Costihan's story, but it's mine, and uh I'd like to hear some of yours as well, which I think we'll get to.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, thank you for sharing vulnerably. And I think that's a gift to the church that all all that you've experienced and and how the Lord, you know, brought you from leading a congregation and also studying under the teaching a lot of these men when it pertains to reading their books, and just a gift to to remember God's sovereignty. I think praise God for E.W. Pink and Keller's ministry and and just seeing the robust expository preaching that brings us back to Christ time and time again. That's that's a gift.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Thank you for sharing that. And maybe someone's listening, and and you don't have to be ashamed of your story. If God has brought you out, praise God for it. And maybe you're you're caught into this world, and our prayer is God will be pleased to deliver you out of it and grant you to be one who loves his word and loves truth.

Invitation And Closing Blessing

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Well, thank you for listening to Catechizing Conversations today. I uh would love to meet you if you're in the Lebanon County area. Our church meets Sunday mornings at 10 a.m. Go to Lebanon ValleyPCA.com. My friend Micah, lead staff at Disciple Makers Lebanon Valley College. So if you're attending Lebanon Valley College, get a part of the Disciple Makers. The Lord bless you. Look forward to talking with you again soon.