Coaching Works Best When We Stop Trying To Fix People: A Conversation with Author and Coach Vinny Tauriello (Part 2)

Most of us are trained to give answers fast, especially in ministry and leadership. But what if the better move is to slow down, listen longer, and ask the kind of question that helps someone finally see what is driving them? We sit down with Rev. Vincent Tauriello , pastor, professional coach, and founder of By Design Coaching, to talk about the theological foundations behind sound coaching practice and his new book, Drawing Out the Heart. 

We start with Proverbs 20:5 and the image of “deep water,” a reminder that people are not simple problems to solve. Coaching approaches every person as an image bearer of God, worthy of respect, curiosity, and careful attention, even when the heart is conflicted or clouded by sin and “limiting beliefs.” We talk about why coaching is not just for corporate leaders, how it can serve discipleship and sanctification without taking ownership away from the person, and why the goal is discovery before advice. 

Vinny also breaks down his practical Four Cs coaching framework: Connect, Clarify, Create, and Close. You’ll hear how open “What” questions can produce real “aha moments,” why awareness needs to come before action steps, and how this style of conversation can lower stress for pastors by helping people take responsibility for their next faithful step. Subscribe, share this with a leader who needs it, and leave a review. 

For more information on Vinny's coaching, visit: www.bydesigncoaching.net

To purchase Vinny's new book, visit: Drawing out the Heart: Theological Foundations for Sound Coaching Practice: Tauriello, Vincent: 9798253700198: Amazon.com: Books

For information on Victa Leadership, visit www.victaleadership.com

Transcript

Welcome And A Baseball Detour

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Welcome back to Catechizing Conversations, a podcast about theology, life, and the church. My name is Sisko Victa, and today I'm joined again by Reverend Vincent Torriello. He's pastor, professional coach, and founder of Buy Design Coaching. Welcome, Vinny.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Thank you. It's good to be back. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Great to have you. And uh just so our listeners know, uh Vinny is a professional coach, a coach trainer, and a pastor. He was ordained in 1998 and has served churches in New York, Massachusetts, Maryland, and Pennsylvania. He received his coaching certification in 2018 and founded By Design Coaching, where he coaches leaders and teams in the church and the workplace to increase their capacity, improve their competency, and reap the rewards. And he has written this book freshly released, Drawing Out the Heart, Theological Foundations for Sound Coaching Practice. Yes, indeed. And I was reminded when I read that you pastored in New York and are from New York. I am from New York. Yeah. That in your book, Mariano Rivera, the Hall of Fame uh closer for the New York Yankees, is mentioned in an illustration.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Yes, he is. Yes. I was I grew up following and rooting for the Yankees is passed on from grandfather to father to me. And yeah, I'm a big baseball fan. And particularly those those teams in the nine the late 90s, he was he was money.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah. It reminded me that I lived in New England when for most of the time uh Mariana Rivera was a pitcher for the Yankees and a Philadelphia fan through and through. But living in New England 10 years, you know, I got on the bandwagon to to root for the Red Sox to win their first one. Oh no. Yeah. And so I was there for the first one in uh New Hampshire when they won, finally broke the curse.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

But when you mentioned Mariana Rivera in your book, I just thought of all the times when when he came into a game, it was just like, okay, that game's over. I mean and he had one pitch. One pitch, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Just a cutter. That's right. Well, just you know. Yeah, it sort

Proverbs 20:5 And Deep Water

SPEAKER_02 2:55

off many, many bats. He was dominant. Yeah, he really was.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

And I have to say, I'm not as much against the New York Yankees as I was. I I like Aaron Judge. I mean who can't like Aaron Judge? Yeah. Yeah. But we're here to talk about coaching, not just baseball. And Vinny has written this book, which I think is a tremendous book. I read it in less than 72 hours, and it just got more and more interesting as we went along when as I read read through it. But your coaching practice is really built upon Proverbs 20, verse 5, which says, The purpose in a man's heart is like deep water, but a man of understanding will draw it out. Could you speak to more of why that's a foundation of this whole ministry and what you do as a coach?

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Yeah, thank you. I think in the first podcast we we talked about the drawing out part. I think the other part that's really significant, and it's one of the reasons why the cover of the book was so important to me to have a picture of deep water. Because, you know, we we tend to approach people as not as complicated, not not with the awe and wonder that that the Bible actually attributes to us that we're fearfully and wonderfully made. And this whole idea of deep water is conjures up ideas of mystery. You you you know there's something under there, but you're not sure what it is. And even as I was growing up, one of the favorite shows that I that I enjoyed watching was the uh the adventures of Jacques Cousteau, and he would take his team underwater to explore. And in before that time, there was relatively nothing available to plummet the depths, if you will. And coaching is about that. You you come to people expecting that there's something that you're gonna discover, that they're gonna discover more importantly, and and you come with that curiosity, that mindset, like I'm not sure, I don't know. And so you come armed with questions and and a listening ear to draw out their heart.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Yeah, and this is such a great chapter, chapter 10, where you use that metaphor of like diving into the ocean, and you're not gonna know the depths and the riches that are there unless you dive in. That's right. And so with an individual, often we're we're just passing by or we're just interacting on a superficial or surface level. But coaching is attempting to explore that the riches that are in that person.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Right. Yeah, and coaching is an intentional relationship and conversation where you're where you're doing that. It's not necessarily the way you to approach every single conversation. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Yeah. Right. There's there's a a contract or covenant, if you will.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

That you that's made between coach and and client.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Yeah, and then coachy. Yeah, and there's there's a desire by the person wanting to be coached to learn and grow and develop. There's an openness.

unknown 5:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Um, yeah. And but your metaphor reminds me of in Chaplaincy, there's a saying that a person is a human living document.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Huh.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

And that has always stuck with me. So just like we love the Bible, right? That we're gonna study it and extract out of it the riches that are there. A person is a living human document. Yeah. God has put riches in them, but they have to be drawn out.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

That's so good. I I really like that metaphor and and the idea is similar. Like as pastors, you're exegeting the text, you're trying to let it speak,

Coaching As Spiritual Curiosity

SPEAKER_02 6:35

right? To understand what it's what it really means. And that's the same in coaching. You're really drawing out the person's, let them speak their mind, what's what's really going on, so that you can then help them to look at that and figure out now what? Right. What do I do with that?

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Right. Let's deal with some uh objections. Perhaps someone is thinking, okay, this coaching idea works in an executive environment. It's what's done in business. We talked about in the last episode that this is kind of part and parcel to corporate America, uh, as well as in the sporting industry, of course. If you're an athlete or if you're a worker, you have a coach. But not so much in ministry and in church or religious world. So what what would you say to someone who says, well, you know, we're we're Christians and and we believe that a person is to come to faith in Christ, and and if they don't, right, they remain in their sin. What's the point of coaching someone like that? Like you're saying there's riches in the depths of their heart. What what are we doing?

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Yeah, I think that's fair. You think about that a person is made in the image of God, they have strengths, they have gifts, they even have dreams or desires. And good coaching will will draw those up and help help to build that person up. But let's face it, I mean, not everything in the heart is positive, if you will, right? There are other things, but even there, it's one thing to come at someone and say, you know what, you're wrong, cut it out, that kind of thing. It's quite another thing to help dr unearth the desires and thoughts that m that might be crooked or confused for them so that they can look at them themselves and own that. Oh, now I see why I'm so torn. Now I see why I'm unclear. And then to consider what you want to do about that. So it still puts the responsibility back on them. It's their life to live before God, their discipleship, not yours. Uh their sanctification, not yours. Right. And so you're you're putting the responsibility uh squarely back on their shoulders. Your job is more that you're coming alongside as a support and a help.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Right. And and so then one of the presuppositions of coaching is that every single person is made in the image of God. Indeed. Even if often that image is defaced or distorted.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

They're made in the image of God and they are valuable and God has put things in them that's rich and is the benefit for themselves and for others if they could be revealed and worked out.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Aaron Ross Powell That's right. And it's quite a different thing for you to come in and say, Well, I know what's best for you. Well, what what do you mean by that? Do you have perfect wisdom and understanding as opposed to let's discover what what's going on, what's best before God.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

So in your book, you introduce what's called the four C's of coaching, and that that's a framework that you've developed and it's developed over time. Can you speak to that framework? This this you also teach

Imago Dei And Tough Objections

SPEAKER_00 9:55

other coaches to begin mimicking, if you will, this, though you may we may develop in a different way or have a different approach. But what is what are the four C's of coaching and how did you come up with that?

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Yeah, so the four C's are and it's pretty simple, and I want it to be simple so that it's easy to remember and and apply. And so the first C is connect. You connect with a person who's made in the image of God or an image bearer of God. So you're coming to them w with some respect, some appreciation, some understanding in that regard. And the connecting is not just, hey, how are you doing? What's going on? But it's getting to know them, getting getting to understand the way they where they are and how they think and what's important to them and so on, so that you can support and assist them. Uh the second C is clarify. So in in any conversation, coaching conversation, you want to know what it is that we're gonna be focusing on. Right? So you want to clarify the focus of the conversation. We can't talk about everything. Right. We want to talk about something. And what is that something gonna be for today? What what's gonna be most helpful? What's really the thing that you you would kick yourself for not talking about today after we're done. And then the third C is create, and and there's two aspects to that. In coaching, you want to create awareness for them and action steps. And and they they're in that order for a reason. There there needs to be some understanding of what's really going on or what the situation, the issues are that you're facing. So some clarity on that before you begin to say, okay, so with that in mind now, or seeing that now clearly, what do you want to do about that? What what are some options that can move you forward here or address this? And then the last C is simply close. And that's not saying, Great to talk with you, see you later. It's actually helping them to mine the gold that they unearthed during your time. During the conversation, they some some insight came, some idea, some action that they want to take, and that close really seals it and confirms it and and solidifies it for them so that their learning and growing continues.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Sure, sure. We hear a lot about goal setting in in the world and in self-help books or or leadership books, but often those goals just dissipate. And so really a coach is coming alongside of this uh individual and getting them to be forward-looking and and but ask those follow-up questions. How how do you intend to get there?

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Yes. Yeah. And even, you know, one of the things I like to ask is, okay, so how confident are you that you'll do this, you know, zero to

The Four Cs Framework

SPEAKER_02 12:55

ten? And if they're a five, the likelihood of them doing that is pretty, pretty low. Right. And so you want to, okay, so how can we knock that up a click or two? How can we make that a seven or an eight? Right. Um, and you know, what support do you need to accomplish that goal?

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Yeah. That kind of thing. Well, you ran through these four C's rather quickly, but if you get the book, when again we're speaking with Reverend Vinny Torello and his book Drawing Out the Heart, if you get this book, there's you go into depth about each one of these C's.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Yeah. And you know, like you said earlier, it's a framework. It's something that it's like driving someone else's car. You know, you you you you take a little while to get used to it. It reminds me of one of my favorite movies called Finding Forester. And you find Forest. Yeah. Which is a great movie. It's about writing, right? Yeah. So there's a older, accomplished novelist who's now a recluse. He can't he can't even go outside. And uh and a young wannabe novelist, and they, you know, meet up as is often the case in these kinds of movies, and they end up benefiting one another in a lot of ways. And the senior uh writer tells the younger writer, he reads his stuff and he says, You you don't even know how to write. So he gives him his own writing and says, start typing my writing, and you'll get a feel for what good writing is. And and and then you can write your own stuff. And that's what I wanted the four C's to be. So you can use them like to get a feel for what the flow of a good conversation is in coaching. And then once it becomes yours, make it your own.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah, yeah. And I took your by design training, coaching. What do we call that? The coaching foundations training. Coaching foundations training and you go through that. It it it was extremely helpful. But that's a that I love that illustration. That's how I learn, right? I that's why I like to listen to better preachers than I am. I learn from them, right? Or writers. I agree, same thing.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Let's go back to that point of your connecting with the individual. Uh what is driving that is again, they're made in the image of God. How does that shape the entire conversation and really your entire relationship with that client? Just going back to this is a person made in the image of God. I mean, that there's so much there.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Yeah, there really is. I mean, there's some things that you have in common, and then there's a whole story, a whole life that you have no idea about. And and coming with that sense of mystery, curiosity, even the sense that they have strengths that they may or may not be aware of, that that are they have been endowed by God. They have they have opportunities in front of them that that if they are able to embrace them and approach them, they could fulf better fulfill their calling to God. And so you're you're coming with that sort of excitement, hopefulness, looking forward in that regard, even for them in some ways, right? With with a with a sense of you know, wonder and appreciation.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Correct me if I'm wrong, but either in the book or in our conversations, have you mentioned that it was your talking with a coach that helped you get this book written or got you over the hump, so to speak? Is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Well, so I have a colleague when I was stepping out of full-time ministry and into full-time coaching, I was and I was quite scared. I was talking with someone and they said, Oh, you need to talk to Charles. And uh, who's Charles? You know, I said, Well, just call him up, called him up. So he he also was a pastor who had transitioned into coaching and he was a few steps ahead of me, called him up, and he was more than happy to help me. We've stayed friends. In fact, I just saw him a couple days ago. He was in town and we we we grabbed a lunch together. But he he and I met probably weekly for the past three, four, five years. And at the beginning of 2025, I was still yammering about this book idea. Right, right. And he said, Vinny, listen, yeah, can you stop talking about this thing? When are you gonna actually write it? Why don't you make 2025 the the year you write the book? Of course, I swallowed hard and I thought, I like a good challenge. Yeah, yeah. Gauntlet Throne challenge received. And uh so that's what I did in 2025. I blocked out some time and started uh hammering away. And uh by the end of the year I had uh I had the first uh draft of a manuscript.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

That's a good example of how a coach, even though this is a client or a peer of yours, but a coach can help get you over the hump and challenge you. And you did that with me when I was writing my dissertation for a doctorate of ministry degree. Boy, that was a beast.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

And it it seemed insurmountable to me for so long. And it seemed to only get harder for reasons that I won't go into here on this podcast. Right. But thank the Lord I crossed the finish line and got it done. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

And he assisted me along the way, right? So I had any number of what's called limiting beliefs, beliefs that I that were limiting my ability to actually embrace this challenge and follow through with it. And you know, we we walked through them uh step by step, and and that's what really helped me, as you put it, over the hump to stick with it, to persevere, and and ultimately to write the book.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Yeah, yeah. No, that that's the wording you use, limiting beliefs. And when I read that, I thought, boy, yeah, how how many of us have a plethora of limiting beliefs that need to be addressed and overcome by the power of God's grace?

Powerful Questions And Aha Moments

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yes. So clarify, that's the second C. You talk a lot about asking good questions, because good questions help to uh create clarity. And that's one thing I remember as well as in the training was the recognition, the realization that some questions are weak. Yes. And I would often ask why, and that's a weak question. Can you speak more to what makes a good question and why good questions are so important in coaching?

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Yeah, yeah. I like to call them powerful questions because they they they literally have power to unlock the mind and the thinking. And so not every question is created equally. And so there are questions that are yes and no. We call them like closed questions, you know, or or even, you know, where did you go to eat? I went to the local cafe. Yeah, you know, that's the end of the conversation, pretty much, as opposed to, well, what what what did you do yesterday? You know, and that's that's quite open, right? And so what we're try what we try to promote and encourage is open questions. Typically a what question is an open question. You know, what's that like for you? What's important to you? What what do you want to do? What would you do if you had a million dollars and no restraints? Well, that that that facilitates creativity and and exploration and development and and sometimes a story and a lot more than just a yes or a no or you know at the local cafe answer.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Yeah, I practiced it on my kids when I came back from your training. And and so when I would ask how is school, well, what's the answer? Good. So I'd say, what made it good? Yeah, I see. There you go. Yeah. And and so uh you're you're wanting people to get to that aha moment, right? Well what is that aha moment?

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Yeah, so you know, you're living in your own skin and you have your own perspective and your own mindset. And typically we come to very similar conclusions time and time again. The aha moment is when you're seeing something from a fresh perspective. It's right in front of you, it's been there, but now you have uh clarity, you have understanding. One of the biblical examples that comes to mind of this is with the two lost sons. The one son who says, Dad, I want my inheritance, I want to go off and do my thing, which he does. And there's a point in the story where it says he came to himself. Right. You know, that's the aha moment. He realized some things that he had lost sight of who he was, what got him to where he was right now. The fact that he didn't have to stay where he was, he could return. Right, all of those are awareness. It's insight. Those maybe it's common knowledge, all those things, but he didn't have it. It wasn't it wasn't before him. And so coaching is fostering and facilitating that kind of moment.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Sure. And that that would fall under the sea, right? Create. You're wanting to create awareness as well as steps for action.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Aaron Ross Powell Right, but even clarify as well. Okay. Like sometimes someone will come to a conversation, they're not sure what to talk about. And so we'll poke around and and and find that special subject, if you will, that most important focal point. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

And just even from a biblical ministry standpoint, that we're we are believing that the people around us are made in the image of God, right? That billions of years from now there's still going to be those people. Yes. That the work that we're doing, the entertainments and all the other things, that it's those things are not more glorious, if you will, than the fact that we have neighbors around us and people around us who are made in God's image.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Yeah. That value.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

It's valuing people. And uh that's the beauty of coaching.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Yes. Yeah, and then when you think you think of the Christian, what what is the value of the Christian? Well, it's it's what God was willing to pay for us to to be his children, right? Right. You know, the inestimable value of the blood and and life of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. What value does that impute to us?

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Right, right. Yeah, there's certainly a lot to talk about. There's a lot of gifts that can be revealed and begin to walk in them and and exercise them, as well as there's a lot of dreams and and goals that God has put in his people that need to be, as you you put it, someone needs to dive in and and start talking about them. Yeah. Saying, how do we get there?

SPEAKER_02 24:06

That's right. That's where my friend Charles came in. And I'd been, as I said, yammering about writing a book and writing a book. And yeah, I like to write, good at writing, but I would have never had the courage and confidence to write had I didn't if I didn't have someone who came alongside of me to uh to challenge me and and in a sense hold me accountable to it.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Yeah, that's so good. And now we're holding this book in our hands, right? Drawing out the heart theological foundations for sound coaching practice. We encourage our listeners to get a copy and go on Amazon and could be at your doorstep tomorrow. A drone may drop it there. That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

And so going back to that last C create, you're you're wanting the individual to take ownership of their own life and their own goals. I mean, Charles couldn't write the book for you. Yes. And and so as a coach, you're you're wanting the your client to grow in their development.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Yes. Yeah. You know, it reminds me of a time when I was teaching the coaching foundation's training to a group of uh pastors and their wives and ministry leaders in a local context. And we were debriefing towards the end, and we were talking about this idea of helping people, asking people questions as opposed to trying to solve their lives for them, helping them to come to their own decisions and ownership of and and you know, we were going back and forth, and it was like a light went on for him. And he said this something like this He said, So if I did this, if I took if I asked questions and and drew people out and helped them to come to their own conclusions, I would feel

Ownership, Less Pastoral Stress, Closing

SPEAKER_02 25:55

so much less stress and ownership of everybody else. Right. And it was like this he had an aha moment right then right then and there. That could you imagine the gift it would be to pastors to begin to own this kind of style of relating and the stress that could be dropping off of them.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Right. Right, which is very biblical that a person is responsible for their own actions. Yes. And we can't carry everyone's burdens.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

That's right. Yeah. And I mean, when uh the disciples reported back to Jesus, you know, what everybody else was saying who he who he is, what did he say?

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Who do you say that I am? Who do you say that I am that's right. Yes. That's right. Yeah. Well, we're coming to the close of this podcast. This has been an excellent time to visit with you, and and I would encourage our listeners to get a copy of this book, Drawing Out the Heart, and to explore coaching more. I'm a benefit of it, having been coached by you and been part of your ministry and taken the coaching's training as well. I think healthy leaders produce healthy followers, right? I mean, we want healthy churches, we want healthy organizations, but if the leaders are ill and sick and malnourished, so to speak, that's gonna spread.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I like the way Pete Peter Scozero puts it. As go the leaders, so goes the church.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Yeah. And and so where can people find this book? Other than Amazon, but also about your ministry, what where can they go on the web?

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Yeah, so uh by design coaching.net is my website. The book is not yet up there, but it will be shortly. And I also have it on my person if if you live in the Philadelphia area. But yeah, you can you can connect with me there and be happy to talk to you or connect with you on Facebook or LinkedIn. I'm also in those as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Excellent. Well, Vinny, thank you for taking the time to be with us. And uh it's been really encouraging. And and thank you for your ministry and and what you're doing, and pray that it continues to prosper and grow and and that this this idea of coaching becomes more familiar and it's put into practice in our churches. I think we need it. And not just our churches, but various organizations.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yeah. Thank you, Cisco. It's always a pleasure, and I and I wish you likewise in your ministry and in your work. Yeah, go Yankees. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

No, no, no, go Phillies. All right. Thank you for listening to Catechizing Conversations. Uh, we trust that this conversation has been a blessing to you. If it has, like and subscribe, pass it below, share, all that good stuff wherever podcasts are found. Thank you for joining us.