Drawing Out The Heart: A Conversation with Author and Coach Vinny Tauriello

Leadership can feel like carrying everyone else’s weight while having nowhere safe to set down your own. That is why we sat down with Reverend Vincent Torriello, pastor, professional coach, and founder of By Design Coaching, to talk about  coaching that is both practical and  rooted in theology. His new book Drawing Out the Heart: Theological Foundations for Sound Coaching Practice makes a clear case that coaching is not a trendy add-on, but a way of helping leaders grow through wise questions and genuine listening. 

We dig into what coaching is and what it is not. Coaching is not preaching, teaching, mentoring, consulting, or counseling, even though it can complement all of them. Instead of “downloading” answers, coaching draws out what God has already formed in a person made in His image and, for believers, what the Holy Spirit is already stirring. We talk about Proverbs 20:5 and why that picture of “deep waters” captures the heart of the coaching relationship, especially for pastors and ministry leaders who are expected to be strong but are rarely developed after ordination. 

One of the most striking parts of the conversation is the biblical pattern of God asking questions and listening intently. From Genesis to the Gospels, God’s questions create clarity, ownership, and movement, and Vinny argues that this posture shapes sound coaching practice. We also explore why leaders need a confidential thinking partner, why a coach focuses on the person rather than merely fixing problems, and how coaching skills can strengthen discipleship, staff leadership, and church culture. If you care about pastoral health, leadership development, and practical ministry wisdom, listen through and then share it with a leader who needs it. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: what is one area where you wish someone would help you think instead of telling you what to do?

For more information on Vinny's coaching, visit: www.bydesigncoaching.net

To purchase Vinny's new book, visit: Drawing out the Heart: Theological Foundations for Sound Coaching Practice: Tauriello, Vincent: 9798253700198: Amazon.com: Books

For information on Victa Leadership, visit www.victaleadership.com

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Welcome back to Catechizing Conversations, a podcast about theology, life, and the church. My name is Sisko Victor, and today we have a special guest with us, joined by Reverend Vincent Torriello, pastor, professional coach, and founder of By Design Coaching. Vinny, it's uh great to have you.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

It's great to be here. Thank you for having me, Sisko. And I always enjoy our conversation, so I'm looking forward to the one we have today.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Absolutely. Well, for our listeners, Vinny recently released the book Drawing Out the Heart: Theological Foundations for Sound Coaching Practice. It's a book about exploring the biblical and theological foundations of coaching, listening, asking wise

Why Coaching Became A Calling

SPEAKER_02 1:20

questions. And personally, again, for our listeners, Vinny has coached me during church planting and pastoral ministry. And I also had the privilege of completing his by design coaching training. And so this conversation is especially uh meaningful for me, and I'm excited for our listeners to hear it. So again, Vinny, it's great to have you.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Before we get into the book itself, what what what motivated you to write this book?

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Yeah, that's a great question. Thanks for asking that. I think my own experience as a church planter in the denomination where I serve, there is an expectation that you would get a coach. And I did. And it was it was moderately helpful. There was some help there. And then later I s began to take some of my own training. Really enjoyed it and saw a benefit of using that. And then I was about on my way to going into a sabbatical and I was quite weary and I ran into an old family friend. She left corporate America to return to uh the Lord to be more faithful to him and available to him in in other lines of work. And she got trained as a coach, and we were talking about that. And she said, You know, I would love to coach someone in ministry. Can I coach you? And I said, Well, Allison, that sounds great, but I guess I'm not going to be able to afford you. I was right. But she said, you know, listen, I'd really like to do this pro bono. I received that coaching, and I thought to myself, where has this been all of my career? So helpful to be heard deeply, to be drawn out. And one of the assignments in that class that I took with her later on to become trained professionally, I was assigned to do a paper on the history of coaching. And as I'm going through this history of coaching study and I'm doing some of the research, someone, Vicki Brock, who is an expert in the field on the history of coaching, wrote, I believe this goes further back to antiquity, this kind of coaching, this QA. And I thought to myself, that sounds like I want to go back to the Bible and read it through that lens. And and doing so just totally opened up my eyes and it it started to stimulate my thoughts. Like, I think I want to write on this subject because I want to talk about the greatness of coaching. But being a Christian man myself, I want to see how this is aligned and grounded in scripture. Right. And those two things, you know, really inspired me to want to write this book.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Yeah. And I have to say, having read this book, I I picked it up and read it within a week. I I think it's just less than 72 hours. Wow. And I would say that chapter by chapter, to me, it seemed to get stronger and stronger. And I also appreciate how clear and concise you are in your writing of this. Maybe I read too much theological works, but sometimes theologians just kind of branch off and you know, they and then they come back and they branch off and they come back. This this was so concise and clear, and it's it felt like every word was carefully selected. So the it's not a hard read, but it has tremendous depth, and it's dealing with an issue that a lot of people don't understand. What is a coach? Um, I remember when I told a pastor friend of mine that I had a coach, he said, you know, he kind of laughed. He said, What do you what are you getting in the huddle and saying, you know, here's the plays?

What A Coach Actually Does

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Like, what's going on here? So in an executive world, like you're saying, your friend, it's it's more common. Actually, it's very common. But in ministry, it's not so much. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Yeah. Yeah. And I think part of the reason for that is some somewhat it's somewhat unknown, at least for ministry leaders. But what I have found is by and large, the other leaders, the non-teaching elders, if to to use technical terminology, so the ruling elders in a church, they do understand it because in their fields, often whether it's business or or some kind of leadership field, they have coaches or have been encouraged to have one. So it's it's commonplace and and they see the return on that investment, you know, tenfold. But it's less unknown in the church. And I think there's also, you know, in my tradition, the expectation is there's very high standards to get into leadership, like to be ordained. Right. But to stay in, like to to be developed, to continue to grow, there's not a lot of expectation. And so the usefulness of coaching is is not as much appreciated because I think of that. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

Yeah, and it's also what we're focused on. We're all focused on being accurate theologically and biblically, and of course scripturally, which is of utmost importance. Yes. But when you become a pastor, you realize there's a lot more leadership skills needed that now all of a sudden you're faced with and you're saying, they didn't teach me this in seminary.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And our best commodity as leaders in the church is ourselves. You know, what what has been poured into us and then comes out of us. And so if we ourselves are not growing, we're limiting the impact that we can have on others and our ability to really be fruitful.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Sure. Again, we're talking to Vinnie Torriello, and he is the author of Drawing Out the Heart. And I love the subtitle here, Theological Foundations for Sound Coaching Practice. So you really get into what is the biblical basis for this practice. You know, you you want to entrench this in scripture. We're not doing something that's unscriptural or unbiblical. This is rooted in scripture. Can you say more about that?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Sure. Yeah. I mean, that's really where the title even comes from. So it comes from the verse in Proverbs 20 and verse 5 that the heart of man or the our our human heart is like deep waters. But a man

Proverbs 20:5 And A Questioning God

SPEAKER_01 7:55

of understanding will draw it out or can draw it out. And so that's uh like a basic foundational principle of coaching is not to pour into people, as important as that is, but to draw out of people, first of all, what's what's already in them naturally by because they're made in the image of God. So we're fearfully and wonderfully made. So there's tremendous good benefits, you know, skills, gifts, so on that are in us. But then additionally, as believers, as Christians, we have the Holy Spirit. So we're drawing out wisdom, understanding, connection between what the options are, what's going on in us, and so on, and what will be most pleasing to God and beneficial. And so I wanted to show that.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Sure, sure. Yeah, it's a beautiful verse. And let's talk about that because that really begins to define what a coach is. You said that it's not about pouring into an individual, but drawing out. So as teachers, preachers, pastors, leaders, we do a lot of pouring in. We do a lot of teaching and instruction. But you're saying coaching is different than that.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Yeah. And I am not saying that coaching is better or replacement or anything like that. There's no other way to proclaim the truth than to proclaim the truth, right? So that's a significant, essential part of the ministry. But coaching is not so much pouring into people and adding to them or downloading information, it's more drawing out of them so that they can grow and develop to their potential and so they can fulfill in a greater degree their calling to God. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah, and I I would think that that's something that bodes well in this culture in which we live. There it is, whether justified or not, sometimes it's justified, sometimes it's not, a skepticism towards institutions, a skepticism towards authority figures. And so coaching is not so much I'm gonna tell you what to do, but it's it's as you said, drawing out the heart. Now, what is the biblical basis for that, other than the verse in Proverbs, that a person has riches in their heart that need to be drawn out, that need to become aware of them themselves.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Yeah, so as I went back to the scriptures to kind of read through more of a coaching lens, I was really quite humbled and shocked at how many times God, right, God who's all knowing, right, is asking questions. In fact, the very first conversation is a question, you know, where are you? And then the second conversation, uh, where is your brother? Yeah, you know, and and and you know, it's not just those two, it's throughout the scriptures uh with Jonah, with Job, and then in the New Testament as well, Jesus asking, for example, a man who'd been ill for 38 years, do you want to be well? Odd question, right? Well, of course you do. Again, not not assuming anything. And so there is a respect of the person that they need to have an understanding, they need to have an insight so that they can do right, so they can make a a choice that is good. And so there's this questioning that goes on where God Himself is demonstrating this and listening, not just asking a question as a a platform to speak, but so that there could be understanding for the person who's being asked. And I think that's really profound.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Yeah, that was an amazing insight. And the chapters you you write on that of how many times God is asking questions, how many times Jesus is asking questions. It's like, wow, uh I've been reading the Bible for decades and I haven't really zeroed in on that, how how much God is asking questions of his people, and Jesus is doing that constantly in his interactions with people in his earthly ministry. And so coaching is is really zeroed in on that, is prompting the client to think through.

Learning To Listen Like God

SPEAKER_02 12:10

That's right. That's not I'm gonna it's not I'm gonna give you the answer.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

That's right. Yeah. And even even the aspect of listening, like we often think of questions perhaps coming first, but actually listening comes first. I mean, one clear example of this is in the book of Exodus, where where God hears the cries of his people before he intervenes, if you will. And so coaching really majors on listening and not just simply on the surface, like what's being said, although certainly what is being said, like not trying to assume you understand what the meaning is that someone is expressing, kind of being sure that you understand and that they're clear about what they're saying. But then there's different less levels of listening as well, like what are they not saying? What about what's the tone saying? What's their body language saying? Right. You know, and so on. And so it's a real skill to develop this listening ear.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Absolutely. Yeah, that's not something we tend to are strong in. Yeah. And we hear our mother saying, It's why God gave you two ears and one mouth, right? Right. But even with that instruction, uh we we talk more than we listen.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yeah. In fact, in in my coaching foundation's training, there's an in-person part and then there's an online cohort part. And one of the assignments I give is a listening skills self-assessment. And everyone comes into it as when as I did when I took this, thinking, hey, I'm a pretty good listener. Right. Maybe even at the top of the class.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Right. And then you take this and you're like, ooh, fair. My score is fair. This is not good. Fair to poor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Yeah. And even when we're listening, we're thinking about what I'm going to say in return. Right. So so that's a that's a lot of work that a coach has to do is learn how to listen.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Yes. How and how important it is. Yeah. So it it is indeed a skill that needs practicing, but it's really intentional. Like I want to understand. I'm curious about you and what's important to you, not simply I have things I need to tell you. So I'm going to wait my turn. Listening is waiting my turn and then I'm going to tell you. That's not what listening is.

unknown 14:28

Aaron Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

And you have a chapter in the book, a listening God. And so uh from that you say that coaching, in a sense, is imitating God through the listening, through the asking of questions, through the seeking to explore the heart of an individual. This is a practice of doing what God does with his people all the time.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Aaron Powell That's right. Yeah, it's it's really a um privilege, an honor to imitate our God in this way. And you know, there's there's a hundred and fifty examples of God listening to us intently. Uh we call them the Psalms. Um and listening to us really in any experience, in any and every experience in the full range of human emotion. And he's there listening, attending. And we get to imitate that in meeting people where they are, listening to what's really going on for them, and helping to assist them in their own growth and development.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Aaron Ross Powell And as you said, the coaching is not seeking to replace pastoral ministry, it's not seeking to replace preaching, it's not seeking to replace a lot of other disciplines. And so how would you distinguish coaching from the other helping disciplines?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Yeah, so typically we think of mentors and we think of consultants, counselors, teachers. So a mentor

Coaching Versus Mentoring And Counseling

SPEAKER_01 15:55

is imparting wisdom to you as someone who's been there and done that. You know, they put their arm around you and say, you know, when I was in your shoes, this is what I did. I encourage you to do the same, something like that. A consultant is coming in more as a subject matter expert, sizing up a situation and giving you advice. Hey, I think you not I think, but you should do this, you should do that, things will turn around for you. Teachers are coming in and they're depositing information or knowledge, you know, that they themselves have attained and they're passing on to you. And all of those are important. All of them have their place. And then counselors come alongside, they they engage with people to bring about typically healing with the past and some kind of assistance to manage present challenges, you know. And so where coaching comes in, it it's probably the closest to counseling in that counselors use very similar listening and asking, but their focus is usually on the healing of the past, where coaches focus is on moving people forward in the future.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Yeah, those are very good distinctions to make. And as you were explaining those, I was thinking myself as a pastor, we've welcomed in those other disciplines to the church, obviously counseling, obviously mentoring, and even at times consulting. Churches will hire consultants to come in to give an assessment of where the organization is and staff and so forth. But coaching, not as much. And yet it has a vital place. And I for me personally, uh again, you were my coach when we planted our church, Lebanon Valley PCA in Lebanon County, Pennsylvania, and that was a scratch work. And I I don't want to uh misrepresent this. We had tremendous support from our presbytery, tremendous support from sister churches. So all that is true. But as a scratch work, you know, it's kind of like you're out there in the middle of nowhere and people are giving you their support, but you're still out in the middle of nowhere by yourself. Yeah. And I remember those those years of beginning, having you as a coach was just vital. Uh I yeah, I can't express enough how helpful that was. And at the time, I really didn't know what coaching was. Maybe I was thinking of you more as a mentor. And so it was a little bit disorienting at first that you were not just saying, Hey, sis go do this, this, and this. Right. But you were coming alongside of me and prompting with your questions what was going on and what situations I was facing, et cetera, et cetera.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Yeah. Because I I come to it knowing, believing that you are made in God's image, that you that he has called you, right, to this work. Right. So he he doesn't call

Church Planting With A Coach

SPEAKER_01 18:55

people to go do something haphazardly. So he called you to it. He equipped you, he gave you the competencies and the character to to do the work. And my role is to come alongside to buoy that up, if you will, to strengthen you, to build you up so that you can face the issues, the challenges, the problems, the the good things. Sure. And and really embrace those and do those well. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

And it was it was a blessing, and we're we're still here, we've grown, and wonderful. Yeah, I was thinking about it when I started with your coaching. I was in the middle of a dissertation. You were, which was way over the top too much, and I never thought I'd get it done. I was in the middle of a a scratch work, which was beginning with 10 people or less, and eight of them were my family. And now the church has grown to around a hundred people, and the dissertation, thank the Lord, is done. Yes, way done.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

And so you walked with me through both of those challenges.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah, and and to be clear, it's not simply to help get things done, but it's helped you to grow into those roles, those callings, those opportunities that God has had given you.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

Sure. Yeah. And in fact, one of the statements you make in your book is you you coach the person, not their problems. Yes. Could you speak more to that?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Sure. Yeah. So typically, you know, people come and they say, you know, there's this difficult person I have in my life, and can't we can't get along and we can't talk to them, and so on and so forth. And you can teach certain communication skills and you know, how to manage oneself and one's emotions in those conversations, and all of that is good. But what you're really you're not trying to solve the problem of having a conversation or not. You're you're seeking to build that person up so that they can have perspective about well, why why is this particularly difficult? Right. What is the challenge for you in this situation? Where do you need to grow? What about this situation as opposed to all the other relationships you have? What is what is about that that gives you a roadblock or a a pause? Sure. And so in doing so, you begin to grow yourself and develop yourself. And so we're not just trying to solve everybody's problems or accomplish everyone's goals, but really to build up the person in that in that whole process.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Yeah, that's great. That's great. I mean, and it's so your coaching is helping people take responsibility for their own lives. 100%. And it's also developing the person, as you said, so that they can deal with those problems instead of just, okay, now we gotta deal with another problem. Let me help you with that problem, well, let me help you with this problem. No, you're seeking to to develop the person so they're able to to approach those problems with With greater fortitude and skills.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Right. As well as to help them to understand or begin to be creative about their options. Right. So what would you like to do in this instance? You know, what what would what would really make this a better relationship? Which is a different question from how do you put up with this person. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

It's put into focus on you, saying, I I have to change, and there's things that I have to develop in. Right. Yeah, that's so good. One of the things that I have come to see as I've appreciated coaching more and learned more about it is just the the fact that we need more coaches. And people who are in leadership particularly are often thrown into

Coaching The Person Not Problems

SPEAKER_02 22:45

all that leadership demands, and they are helpers. And yet they don't have somebody to go to and say, you know, process what they're going through. So that's one thing that's kind of been you know, there's a blessing, but the curse of it is now that I see the need of like, you know, organizations will put someone in charge and they deal with difficult things day in and day out. But where are they processing their leadership?

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Yeah, I mean you think about it, in in a leadership role, uh nobody's knocking on your door saying, Hey, how can I help you? You know, what do you need? Right. I mean, maybe, but uh uh you know, rare occasions. Sure. But where do you go to think your your thoughts out loud or or process what it's like for you to go through this or that? And is that really appropriate as you go downward, you know, the your direct reports or your congregants, you know, whatever your context is. Right. Not exactly. And and do you want to go to your board? Well, if I say everything I'm thinking and feeling to my board, are they gonna take my job away or look at me differently or treat me differently? So a um a coach becomes a confidential, safe thinking partner, a person to process with, to work through your stuff and to work on yourself.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Right. Right. And and that goes back to in the executive world, this is a common thing.

unknown 24:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

That's where I first heard about coaching was in a in a church I was serving where there was a man who was an executive at a very high position in a large organization, a Fortune 500 company. And he told his pastor, yeah, coaching, we we don't even think twice about that. Anyone in position of leadership within our organization has a coach. And then he's looking at his pastor saying, But you don't. And I think you'd need one. Yeah, yeah or it'd be helpful for you to have one.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Right. And I think coaching uh is not only beneficial for the leader, but through the leader, if if leaders learned some coaching skills, it could really enhance their discipleship, it could enhance the way they lead their staff, how they lead a meeting. Right. Um and you know, I think there's l lots of good applications of its usefulness in the life of a church.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Absolutely. Yeah, again, if uh going back to my own example, when I was working with you, I was picking up on the skills that you were using with me, and I was able to replicate some of those through my own personality and so forth, but just with people that I was working with.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

And I found that so helpful, particularly as I learned I learned by watching or listening and observing, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Yes. Yeah, and you're a great example of you know, a coach wants to work themselves out of a job in a sense, to re to really, you know, equip and impact the coache so that they can then take what they're gaining, not just personally, but practically in relationships as well.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Right, right. And and so you you've written this book. We're talking with author and professional coach

Why Leaders Need A Safe Partner

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Vincent Torriello, who's written Drawing Out the Heart, Theological Foundations for Sound Coaching Practice. This book has a tremendous principles and really opens up to people what is a coach. You you define it so well, and ultimately it's to the glory of God, right? Yes. That's why we're doing what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Yes. Yeah, in the in the uh professional coaching world, I I use a very similar definition, but I add uh it's for the glory of God because I want it to be clear, at least I wrote this for more of a Christian audience, that we're we're not just doing, you know, this is not just a cool new thing, but this is something that we can use in honor and praise to God.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Sure. Well, there's so much that we could get into. This book is jam-packed with beautiful principles, whether you're a coach or not, or you're exploring that you want to become a coach, or you feel like I need to be coached. Yes. But what what do you most hope ordinary readers take away from it?

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Yeah, so I I would say for those who are already coaching, who are Christians, that they would get a sense of the a greater sense of the value, a greater sense of the dignity and and a greater sense that what they're doing actually pleases and honors God. That was really important to me as I went into this field as I moved from full-time pastoral work into full-time coaching. I really wanted to know that what I was doing was good. Right. And and not just useful, but glorifying to God. And I think this book would help those who want to coach feel good about what they're doing. Those who are maybe skeptical, I think it will help them to see how this actually fits into the warp and whiff uh woof of scripture so that they can get a sense that this is grounded in theology. This is not just a new cool thing that's that's come out.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

We're not just mimicking the entrepreneurial or corporate world. Right. Yeah. Maybe they're mimicking us.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

I mean, well, I would argue that because every good and perfect gift comes down from our father in heaven. That's right. And so this is one of them. And then for those who want to be coached, that this would give them a sense that this could really be uh the helpful tool at a certain point, right? So it's not for those who need counseling. Sure. And and there are some things in their lives that are really preventing them from moving forward, keeping them stuck, but those who are fair fairly in fairly good health, if you will, uh spiritually, emotionally, who who want to grow in their sanctification, want to grow in their effectiveness in life or in work or in ministry, coaching can be a great tool. Sure. I think this would help them to see that.

Takeaways And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_02 28:55

So, Vinny, where can people find the book? How and how can they connect with your ministry? Because you also have ministry where you're coaching, but you're also training coaches.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Yeah, thank you. So my book is on Amazon. So just you can just look up Drawing Out the Heart, Theological Foundations for Sound Coaching Practice, and it should pop up.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

And it'll pop up on your doorstep in 24 hours. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Yeah, if you have Amazon Prime, quickly, I also have them on my person. So if you're local to me, you know, you can always grab one from me. And then uh my website is www.bydesigncoaching.net. And there you the the book stuff is not up there yet, but my coaching services, my coach's training, and and more about myself is is up there if you're so interested in that.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Sure. Well, take it from me if it means anything to connect with uh Vinny to get this book, connect with his ministry, consider coaching in your own life, either for yourself or as a leader, or perhaps entering uh if God leads you to that direction, entering the uh coaching field yourself. Vinny, thank you so much for being with us.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Thank you, Cisco. It's a a pleasure as always to converse with you and and thank you for your interest and support of the book and my ministry.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

You're welcome. Well, thank you to the listeners today, listening to Catechizing Conversations, and we trust that you have a blessed week and that you grow. Grow in your faith, grow as a leader, and uh move forward with the blessing of the Lord. Thank you for listening.