Let's Talk About Predestination! (Westminster Confession of Faith Chap. 3) Part 1

“God ordains whatsoever comes to pass” can sound like a wrecking ball to your sense of freedom and fairness. We sit down with Westminster Confession Chapter 3 and take the doctrine of God’s eternal decree seriously, without turning people into puppets or turning God into a distant spectator.

We walk line by line through the confession’s careful claims: God’s decree is wise, holy, free, and unchangeable, and yet God is not the author of sin. From there we open the Bible and follow the thread through Proverbs 16, Ephesians 1, Acts 2:23, and Joseph’s words in Genesis 50:20. You’ll hear why Reformed theology rejects the idea that election is based on foreseen faith, why “salvation is of the Lord” is more than a slogan, and how God can use even sinful human actions for righteous ends without sharing in the guilt of those actions.

We also tackle the practical fears: Does this lead to fatalism? Does it kill mission? Acts 27 gives a surprising answer, showing that God ordains the end and the means, so real choices truly matter. We close with pastoral comfort and a story of gospel ministry where predestination becomes hope for the ashamed and the weary, not a weapon for arguments.

If you want deeper assurance, steadier worship, and a more biblical view of God’s sovereignty and human responsibility, listen now. Subscribe, share this with a friend who wrestles with predestination, and leave a review with the question you still want answered.

Transcript

Reading Westminster Confession Chapter Three

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Welcome back to Catechizing Conversations. A podcast focused on the theology for life in the church and for the church. I'm Sisko Victa and joined again by Drew Brackville. Welcome, Drew. Thank you, Cisco. Thank you for continuing to have me on your podcast. Absolutely. We've got to bring in the heavy hitters as we get deeper into the confession. And today we are on a heavy topic: Westminster Confession Chapter 3, which is titled Of God's Eternal Decree. And some would label it predestination or election. And this is one of the most weighty and as well as one of the most misunderstood or controversial doctrines of the Christian faith. The confession says God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass, and we'll read that in its entirety here in a moment, at least that first point. But the shorter catechism summarizes this way what are the decrees of God? Answer: The decrees of God are his eternal purpose according to the counsel of his will, whereby, for his own glory, he hath forordained whatsoever comes to pass. So there's a lot of questions that come up from this, and questions about, well, what about individual choices? What about our wills? Are we really responsible if God is sovereign, fully sovereign? Are our choices real? So today we want to walk through that and see how the scripture holds all these things together so we approach this topic with humility, assurance, and ultimately worship. So, Drew, do you want to read in its entirety that first point?

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Yeah, chapter three, section one of the Westminster Confession says, God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass, yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established, and we'll explain what all these words mean towards the end of the podcast. We'll probably also talk, at least maybe to some degree, about section two, which says, although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, right, his foreknowledge is perfect, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. Here the divines, Westminster Divines, are you know refuting an idea. I think it's popular in Arminianism that, well, you know, God knew that we would choose him, so he chose us. And they're saying, No, you know, that's not why God chose to do that.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Yeah, that's the very common objection or way to try to explain many scriptures is that God looked down the quarter of time and saw that we would choose him, and so he chose us. And the divines, these theologians in the Westminster Assembly are certainly repudiating that, and we would repudiate that as well because of what Scripture says and what it doesn't say. But the first statement really is a stunner. I mean, it's a it's a shocker for a lot of people, and and it's that the God from all eternity has ordained whatever comes to pass. Scripture teaches that in multiple places, but it still stuns us. What makes our reaction what it is to that?

Why Sovereignty Feels Offensive

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Well, uh, and I know I talked about this in prior episodes, that you know, obviously we would say humans have a a disordered view of the cosmos, right? One of the and I'll I I will probably reference this continually. I think one of the beauties of the reformed theological tradition is that it puts God at the center of existence and human beings in their proper role as creatures, right? Whereas many other theological systems are I think placing humanity on an even footing with God and I would say even maybe even have an element of Pelagianism in them, which we may or may not have a chance to get into. But the the idea that we have to have some role in our own salvation for it to be truly meaningful, I think arises out of the idolatrous nature of the human heart.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Yeah, because it's not only uh Christian tradition that has allowed that kind of thinking in, but it that's the rampant secular view is that I'm the captain of my own ship. I can determine my future by my actions, by my willpower. And this is the philosophy that's prevalent in secular culture around us, and it has been for some time, particularly as Westerners. We want to be the people, pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and make it happen, you know. And so that kind of thinking has crept into the church as well. And as you said, there's this dominant view of uh a synergistic view of salvation.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

You know? Trevor Burrus, Jr. It matters not how straight the gate, how charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Yeah, yeah. Invictus. Invictus, and they made a movie about it. Yeah. It's uh such a great thing. And yet it's secular humanism. But you're saying that that secular humanist humanistic view is also seen in some of our Christian traditions. I mean, when you say God did half and then I did half, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Well, and in fairness to people that disagree with us on this topic, I think most of them would well, I don't I don't know for sure. I would hope most of them would not say God did half and I did half. Most of them would probably say, God did 90% and I did 10%, right? And that's more, you know, that's closer to putting man in his proper place in the cosmos. It's not it's not as though, you know, we're not special, right? We are created in the image of God, but we are nevertheless created. And this the suggestion that human volition is on an equal footing, or we I would to simplify, say human willpower is on an equal footing with divine willpower such that it could resist it, I think is just a I don't think it's scriptural, right? Maybe we should get into the scripture proofs. B it's not really logical. Um that's right. So but you know, Proverbs sixteen nine, sixteen nineteen, Proverbs 16 has a couple things that we would say are proof text for this idea that in sixteen nineteen the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps, right? Proverbs sixteen thirty-three, the the lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the Lord. You know, we could and you've referenced Ephesians one before, but that's that whole introduction of Ephesians I think succinctly lays out the Pauline doctrine of God's sovereignty and and his ultimate plan for salvation.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Yeah, and we we did refer to this when we were talking about the Trinity, and that is in Ephesians one, three through fourteen, we see it's summarized that the Father elects Christ has died for those the Father has elected unto salvation, and the Holy Spirit has applied it to their lives and their hearts. So you have the work of the triune God in salvation, all beginning with divine election. Uh God chose some. Right, and verse eleven would say he pre he predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will. And of course, again, there's another strong proof text to WCF chapter three one. God from all eternity, by his most wise and holy counsel of his will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.

Scripture Proofs For God’s Decree

SPEAKER_02 8:59

Yeah, and so without getting into a very long philosophical discussion of determinism versus free will compatibilism, and there's a lot of ten dollar words that that would involve. So, out of mercy to our listeners who who you know find the ten dollar words a a a little bit much, I think there's a few principles, a few first principles that we can draw from what scripture says. And the first one is that all good things are from the Lord, right? And then by definition, that would mean that all evil is from created beings. So when we properly understand sin, we know that sin is a rebellion against God's will or God's law. And so conversely, we also know it says that good works are prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. For for it is God who works in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure. That's Philippians 2 13. So so this is why we would say that good works are not meritorious, because they don't arise from our own will but from God's. And so when the Westminster divines are writing these chapters, they're this one, and also I think the the one in uh about providence as well, is really a defense of the sovereignty of God, or the Calvinist idea of God's sovereignty. Because pretty much, and I'll talk about this later, pretty much everybody would say, Oh, yeah, God's sovereign. But what do you mean when you say that?

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Right. You're right. All cr all Christians, at least I think all Christians are saying God is sovereign. They should. Yeah. But exactly. What do you mean by that? What we're saying when we say God is sovereign, what the divines are saying is that he is totally sovereign. He ordains all that comes to pass.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yeah, and and not not merely that God is the ruler of reality, but also that his divine rule is perfectly good and it's comprehensive, right? Uh it's all-encompassing. So, yeah, what what what each Christian means when they say that they believe in the sovereignty of God, I think depends a ton on their preconceptions. And an objection I've heard raised to the Calvinist idea of the sovereignty of God is that something along the lines of, oh, you know, you Calvinists believe we're all puppets of God, I've heard it phrased much with much more vulgarity than that. But this I think is a childish objection because even like even the most hardened Arminian, if you ask them how they came to faith, they would say something like, Well, my mommy read me the Bible when I was a child, or well, I was a sinner until I had a dream about Jesus on the cross and it caused me to change my life. Or, you know, I think I've heard people say, Well, I was in college and a buddy invited me to a Bible study. And yet they seemingly refuse, or at least they fail to see the sovereign hand of God working in these events, right? Whereas we would say, Well, you know, God sent that friend, God sent that dream. If you have a dream of Jesus on the cross or a dream of the sacred heart or whatever, and you it causes you to convert, how can you not believe in predestination afterwards? Like, like when they look at Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus and they're like, Yeah, I think Paul chose that. You know, I think Paul was he was just very persuaded by the arguments that God made. No, you know, God God pulled him from his rebellion against his will and and uh saved him. And that's the distinction between our view of God's sovereignty, which is that it's it's it's to it's tot totalistic.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Salvation is of the Lord. Yeah, all of it is of the Lord. And so no one gets up in the morning and says, you know what, I I want to choose Christ.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Yeah, today I'm gonna become a Christian. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Without God having first, of course, from eternity past, chosen them. Yeah. And then by his spirit drawing them to himself.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Now, and I even again, and another another attempt to be charitable to I'll say particularly to the Roman Catholic position here, they believe in an idea of provenient grace, which is that, well, for a Christian to convert, God has to, the Holy Spirit has to move in their heart first. That's provenient grace. God's saying, God's offer of salvation to the Christian. But they, and this is a crucial distinction, they believe that a person can say no, right? Whereas we don't. We would say, and this is just a I think this is just a difference in our our prior conceptions, is that they think that either God I think what the Catholics would say is that God chooses not to overrule human will. But not that not that he's incapable, that's why I think like the open theist position is that, well, you know, God is either incapable of overruling human will or he doesn't want to. One of those two. And that's why, you know, sometimes people resist his offer of salvation. And I think there's fewer steps of logic to jump through to just say, well, if God wants you, he gets you. You know, God is like the analogy I've seen of the drowning man. This is this is our analogy of salvation, right? When you're in lost in your sins and trespasses, you're like a man who is drowning. And God, in saving you, throws you a life preserver. You're swimming as hard as you can against the the waves of the ocean of sin in which you drown. Nothing you do can pull yourself up unless God reaches in and pulls you up. And that's that's how we see God working in people's hearts.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Yeah, we could even use an illustration even more extreme than that to try to get to the biblical scriptural point, and that is you're not only flailing in the water, you're at the bottom of the ocean, dead. Yeah. You're dead in trespassing.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

You're actively swimming down, in fact.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

And God resurrected you. It's a total work of the Spirit of God, and it's a miracle. And ultimately the problem with the previous grace and Arminianism, we would say, is that it's the idea that God wants certain things to happen that don't happen. I mean, he he would love for so many people to fill the churches and glorify Christ, but they won't. And so you have what B.B. Warfield would call that's a godling. That's not the God of the Bible.

God’s Plan And Human Sin

SPEAKER_02 15:26

I I certainly think so. Yeah, we both think so. But we're trying to work through it. There's, you know. There's a long tradition of the church like St. Augustine thought this. So But you know, there's another objection, of course, to the Calvinist position, which is that our idea of God's sovereignty would make him the author of sin, right? Which is this is an idea that was repudiated by the the the dudes at Westminster. So I keep saying the divines. And Cisco and I have talked about should we define who the divines are? I think we did already, but the the men who wrote the Westminster Confession of Faith at the Westminster Assembly. But they were at the time there was this there was a particular preacher whose name is I'm forgetting, who had arrived at the conclusion that God was the author of sin. And the Westminster Divines actually issued like a special white paper about this refuting that idea. And so they they were very opposed to the idea that that God is at fault for people's wrongdoing. We know that God doesn't push sinners to sin. We do that freely. Calvinists sometimes will say, of course we have free will, we can freely will to sin. But the nature of God's sovereignty is such that even the actions of sinners are being used by God for his good purposes. So God doesn't create evil because definitionally evil is just a rebellion against him. But he uses even the rebellious acts of sinners to accomplish his goals, his good purposes.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

And so we should read the full statement of three one. I think I just read the beginning. So let me read the full statement because that's what you're speaking to now. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass. Yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Yeah. But rather established is the active thing here, right? That actually it's God's unchangeable will that causes second second causes to be established, given that he's the creator of all things.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

And man is responsible for those evil choices that he makes.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Acts 223 is a clear proof text of this. This Jesus delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, yet you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. So there's the secondary causes, the choice of men, an evil choice, and yet God was sovereign, as we understand sovereign over the death of Christ.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Yes, and in fact, how could salvation have been accomplished otherwise? Right, unless by the blood of the Lamb. And another proof text is in Genesis, when at the end of Genesis, when Joseph is talking to his very humbled brothers who had sold him into slavery, he says, you know, as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good to bring it about that many people should be kept alive as they are today. So it's it's indubitable that God uses man's evil actions to accomplish his good goals. That doesn't make him morally culpable for the evil that those people do. It means he's in charge and he you know he'll get what he wants throughout all of history. But you know, the the moral responsibility for wrong actions, for rebellion against God, still lies with the created being.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

So we could say God ordains the occurrence of all things, but in such a way that human beings are responsible for their actions. So the the divines and what scripture, we would say scripture is saying is that both are affirmed, necessity and contingency. Whatever God ordains necessarily comes to pass, but it can and will come to pass contingently. So without God decreeing to create creatures that have the freedom to choose among various options, there would be no freedom whatsoever because free creatures would not exist.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Yes. Yeah. So when the divines are talking about how violence is not offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established, this means that while God has decreed everything that happens, he doesn't do away with our freedom of choice or remove our accountability for our decisions. And instead his sovereignty works through these second causes, allowing for for genuine actions and decisions without compromising his ultimate control. So again, there's a I went back and forth as I was thinking through what I wanted to say today about whether I wanted to go in a long-winded philosophy discussion about causality, and I ultimately decided no, because we only were trying to keep these to about 45 minutes. But I think we can infer two principles from what we know of God, right? Knowing that he's all powerful and all-knowing and the creator of all things, we can say, well, nothing in the universe can occur without God's permission. And God has the power and knowledge to prevent anything he chooses to prevent. So anything that does happen must at the very least be allowed by God. Every Christian agrees with these two things. The Calvinist distinction and our sort of unique theological contention is not just that God allows sin and evil, as the divines would have said, by a bare permission, but that all of history is his grand design, and that he turns even the evil works of created beings to good ends to accomplish that grand design for history.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

And I think this is where we should begin to and I would hope that we begin to think of this beautiful doctrine. And that's what it is. It is a beautiful doctrine. Decrees, election, predestination, it's a beautiful doctrine. It has been misunderstood and painted in a dark way. But where else is there comfort but to know that God truly is in control? I mean, to think that all of life was dependent on me, on every single action or or misstep that I take. I if I truly believe that, I don't think I'd get out of bed in the morning. I mean, I would be so paralyzed to think that my life is in my hands. And I how can I consciously move through life with any kind of peace if I think the weight of everything is dependent on me?

Rejecting Fatalism With Acts 27

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Yeah. And I also think there's a conversely on the other side of this equation, there is this philosophical idea of fatalism, which Calvinism also repudiates. The idea that, well, everything is this is like megadeterminism, hyperdeterminism, right? Where everything is set in stone, it's all gonna end the way it's gonna end. Nothing I do really matters because fate will conspire a very Greek way of looking at the world, for what it's worth. Fate will conspire to draw me to the ultimate end, and nothing that I do has any real impact on what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

So there's almost the opposite extreme to what I was just describing of being paralyzed is just uh going going through life with uh with a whim, not believing my choices matter, my my decisions matter. Yeah. But if I understand that God is sovereign, my my choices do matter.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

And and what I choose does matter. And yet I can get out of bed and move forward knowing I'm a mere man and he's God.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Yeah. I think we have a we get pegged as fatalists a lot, even though we're not and we we actually disag we we repudiate that idea. Oh, yeah. There's it it's in you want to talk about the the in Acts when Paul is on the ship.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Yeah, absolutely. And and before I do, I uh when you're talking about fatalism, I'm thinking of William Carey, who goes before his church board with a desire to go to India as a missionary, and the church at that time is steeped in just something that Calvin would not want his name attached to, and that's hyper-Calvinism. Hyper Calvinism. And basically the answer to to Carey is young man, when God wants to save those pagans, he will, and he doesn't need you or me. And that's hyper-Calvinism, and that's really attached to uh fatalism.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Yeah. I mean it is true that God doesn't need you or me, but he could be calling you, and therefore you should go. Exactly. But your choice is matter. And in fact, he probably is calling you if you feel it laid on your heart that you should go to the Indians.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

I'm glad you bring that out. He doesn't need you or me. But the idea that, again, we just lay in bed and God's gonna do what he wants to do. No, that's not scripture. So Acts 27 is a beautiful example of this when Paul is set sail in the middle of a violent storm, and the soldiers with him and the sailors are terrified and think they're gonna die. And God sends an angel to the Apostle Paul and says to him, The ship will be lost, but not a single life will perish. This is Acts 27. Paul goes out and declares that to everyone board. And and let's be clear, when we're talking about God said to him through an angel, that this is an apostolic word. This is thus saith the Lord. This this isn't Paul had pizza that night and uh felt a premonition. No, this is the word of the Lord. So he goes out and tells everybody that. Uh his word doesn't fail. If if God said it, it will come to pass. Uh but then later in the narrative in verse 31, some of the sailors tried to abandon the ship. They're lowering the lifeboat to escape. And when Paul sees this, he says to the soldiers, unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved. Now, so so think about that. God has already said no one's going to die. The outcome is certain, and yet Paul is insisting that actions matter. If the sailors leave, they will perish. So I think for many of us that sounds like a contradiction, but it's not. God ordains not only the end, but the means. And the promise that no one would die included the necessity that the sailors remain on the ship. And so to crew the ship, too. Like that's a second cause.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Paul needs these guys on board to take care of the ship.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

He's not thinking like a super apostle at that time. I mean, he's thinking very practically. Yeah. But yeah, actions matter. Real human decisions matter, but God is sovereign.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

Yeah. And so I I have here an analogy that I want that I thought of. I was looking for analogies of just to help people kind of think through this question of how does God's will how can God's will be sovereign and yet our actions still matter and st and our sinful acts still be morally accountable to us. And I had this I couldn't find a good analogy. I found a lot of bad analogies, and so I thought, well, I'll come up with one myself.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Not as bad as Trinity analogies.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

No, not as bad as the uh as the many terrible Trinity analogies. No, but I was thinking of let's let's say I want to repaint the wall in my living room and to keep my children occupied while I'm going to mix my gallon of paint or whatever. I give them a box of crayons and a pad of paper and I tell them, go and make me a beautiful piece of art for daddy. And my children, as I fully expected that they would, right, decide to use the crayons to go and make their artwork by coloring on the walls of my living room instead of on the pad of paper, right? Rebelling against against me. When I come into the living room with my gallon of paint mixed and ready, I can then paint over the crayon scribbles and I leave the wall immaculate in the shade that I always wanted it to be. And you could even say, in his sovereignty, you know, perhaps the father looks at the scribbles and thinks, well, I'm gonna use this to make a little mural on the wall, right? Because sometimes out of tragedy, God creates beauty. The sovereignty of the grown-up in this question is is is not in doubt, right? I gave the kids the crayons, I gave them the living room, right? I could have intervened to stop them, but I didn't. And I even though I knew full well they were probably gonna scribble on the walls, I didn't force them to make that decision to color on the walls. They chose to do that themselves. And so, you know, for reasons of his own, dad might let the kids color on the wall, but he's still in control and ultimately he accomplishes his purposes, the the the wall is finally painted in accordance with his desire. So this is maybe a little bit of a silly analogy, not maybe a perfect one, but I think you can kind of see what I'm getting at. That just because God set everything in motion for us to act as as independent moral actors doesn't make him culpable for decisions that we still chose in that moment to do.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Yeah, and there's a soberness to that, uh even though it's a silly illustration, you may say, but there's a soberness to it in that we are responsible and we'll face the consequences for our sins and misdoings. Oh, the children will face consequences. Oh yeah. But there's also comfort. Uh, really, there's a pastoral comfort here as well, and that is that whatever has happened in life, God is still reigning.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Yeah, God is on his throne. I say that a lot.

Crayons On The Wall Analogy

SPEAKER_00 29:48

God is on his throne, and that and that includes when we look at our own lives and say, if I would have done this, if I wouldn't have done that, we could live with a lot of regret. But as believers, we know God is still our Father. And there's a mystery to all this. Why didn't he intervene? You know, why didn't you jump in and say, hey kids, stop? You did you didn't, you could have, and God could have as well. But as his children, we take comfort in that he is sovereign.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah. And critically, I I in my analogy, I didn't say I was away at Lowe's, so I did not know that there was scribbling on the walls, right? For this to be a real analogy, the father would have to be in the room watching the children scribble and yet not intervene, letting them make their mistakes. And the when we get to chapter five, I think it's chapter five, the chapter that's on Providence, the divines looked at this too and said, some yeah, sometimes God allows his children to fall into temptation.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

And to grieve him. Yeah. And to deal with the consequences.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Yeah. But you know, so we I I used a sort of humorous analogy for a very serious way of looking at the Saint Augustine. I'm going to quote Augustine. He he puts it this way in his uh his writing, the Enkiridian, that what happens contrary to his will, to God's will, occurs in a wonderful and ineffable way, not apart from his will, for it would not happen if he did not allow it, and yet he does not allow it unwillingly, but willingly. Right. So that's in, I think, Article 8 of the Enchiridian. So this idea that God is sovereign and is working everything according to his perfect will goes back to uh Augustine of Hippo, right? And this is one of those moments where Protestants would say, We love Augustine. The Septuagint stuff, not so much, but Augustine's great. So, you know, this is how we can say that God is simultaneously all-powerful and all-knowing, and yet he's not the author of sin, because although he sets all things in motion and indeed he controls all things, because because of his holiness and his righteousness, when created beings choose to do things that violate his law, he's not bound by what we have willed, but rather he accomplishes his holy and his righteous ends in spite of our rebellion. And sometimes because of our rebellion. And in fact, whenever a Christian comes to faith at all, it's happening in spite of their past rebellion. God is not bound by our intense determination to ruin ourselves. He has good in mind for the Christian and and he rescues us despite our wickedness.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Yeah, that that really brings us again to the idea that salvation is of the Lord. And we look at John 15 16, where Jesus says, You have not chosen me, I have chosen you. John 6 44, no man comes to me except the Father draw him.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

And so yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

And yet there's Arminians out here.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Yeah, how can you read that?

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Well, I think they would probably say, you know, some some provenient grace thing, like, Well, the Father draws you, but you could say no. Okay.

unknown 32:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Sure, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

But I think ultimately, and what you're saying about God calls sinners, right? Yeah. And that's what we are, we're sinners. And one thing, if you if you really dig into those verses and uh these other verses that we're working through, I think the ultimate response is I'm a Christian, not because I'm more spiritual than other people, not because I'm more humble, not because smarter, I'm more valiant for truth. It's simply because God chose me. Amen. And he sought me until he broke through my heart and heart. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. I'm a Christian because he chose me.

First Cause And Second Causes

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Yeah. And you know, I think that's one of the beauties of this doctrine is it it doesn't all it requires of us is gratitude. Right? Gratitude and and that we should go and and and witness about what God has done for us. The vilest offender can be saved by a holy God. And I think that's one of the the wonders of of this view of things. But in the in the reformed tradition, you know, we we believe in a doctrine of providence, which we're going to get to in a few months, probably. It's two chapters away, but probably three or four months. Yeah, I have one coming in a week. But we believe in a doctrine of providence that that says that God upholds, directs, disposes, and governs all creatures' actions and things from the greatest even to the least. This is a, I think, a distinction between what we think and what some others think. It's like they would say, well, God, you know, God wills some big important things, but there's a lot of wiggle room in there for us little humans to do what we want. And I don't like that's not what we think. We think God uh God ordains everything, down to the minutest detail. But we we also we believe that because we think God is the first cause who causes all things to come to pass immutably and infallibly, yet by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either I think you even talked about this earlier, necessarily, freely, or contingently. So let's define these terms, right? First cause, first cause is God. God is the ultimate cause, he ordains the final outcome of everything with absolute certainty and perfectly, because he's good according to his good design, and then he orders things to fall out according to the nature of second causes. What are second causes? Well, created things are second causes. God accomplishes his plan by intermediate means, by created things and human actions. Not because he has to, he he chooses to. And of course, the Westminster Confession also says God is not r not constrained by these second causes. Like he can also divinely intervene, but he chooses to allow the laws of physical reality, gravity, you know, various other physical laws, the conservation of mass, right, these things all are to come to pass using intermediate means. And then when when they're saying necessary freely or contingently, necessary causes are things that happen according to natural laws, like gravity or the passing of the seasons. Freely means when human actors, uh people with free will, are acting according to their own will, yet they're still fulfilling God's plan, like for example, Joseph being sold into slavery.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Pharaoh and Exodus.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Yes. And then contingently, or we might say accidentally, those are events that seem random or coincidental to us, like casting lots, or you know, those are still causes by which God's will is done. Although they may seem random to us. This is why in the Bible, many times they make decisions by casting lots. So that's how we would explain our understanding of how God's will is is done. That He is the ultimate cause, but He works through secondary causes. And like they say in in chapter three here, that the liberty and contingency of these second causes is established by God's creative act, his first mover, his first moverness.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Yeah, it's going back to salvation as of the Lord, God is sovereign over salvation, your mother praying for you, you know, your neighbor telling you about Christ or inviting you to church, the preacher at the pulpit preaching the gospel. These are all secondary causes.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

Yeah. And they are those are what we would describe as free causes, right? Those are the results of humans acting according to their own will. Right? Your pastor chose to preach, and yet in so doing, he is carrying out God's sovereign will. So I think maybe this is a good what are we at for time? Yeah. This is this is probably a good place to draw discussion to a close.

Comfort, Assurance, And Mission Breakthrough

SPEAKER_00 38:07

You have a job, don't you? Yeah, I do. Well as we as we seek to wrap this up, I I really would would hope that the listener today, if they have been perhaps scared of the doctrine of predestination and election and God's sovereignty, or have a negative view towards it, that our little conversation here would help you to think differently. The doctrine of election didn't show up in the New Testament, didn't show up in the Westminster Confession of Faith. Go back to the Old Testament, you go back to the call of Abraham. He chose Abraham. I chose you. And why? He was an idol worshiper. Yeah. So again. Why? Because God chose and God loved. And Deuteronomy 7:7, when God speaks to the people of Israel, the Lord did not set his love upon you, O Israel, or choose you because you were the greatest of people, for you were the least of all people. No, it was because the Lord loved you that he brought you out of Egypt with a mighty hand. And so to me, that sounds like predestination is a marvelous doctrine. Close with this, and and I love this story. This is Harvey Khan, who was a missionary in Korea. First heard this from the late Timothy Keller. But Harvey was preaching to prostitutes in in Korea. And in that particular Asian culture, prostitutes had a far lower status than even prostitutes in other societies. And in Harvey's ministry, he was not breaking through with the gospel. When he offered them the love of Christ, they would say, uh, there's no way that Christ could love someone like me to the scum of the earth. And Harvey came across an idea that I think people most people think, okay, this the ministry is not working very well. What should we do? He starts to preach on the doctrine of predestination. And it's interesting because this is what David Brainerd, Bernard, Brainerd. Was he a Scott? Yeah. Probably Jonathan Edwards' potential son-in-law. Oh, okay, yeah. Who is ministering to the Indians? This this is said of him as well, as he would take his Bible and the shorter catechism and preach the shorter catechism and the doctrine of election. But Harvey begins to preach from Ephesians 1 and Deuteronomy 7 and the verses that we've been talking about. And he says, Let me tell you about the doctrine of election. Our God doesn't love you because you're good, you're moral, or you're humble, or because you've surrendered or repented enough. He has chosen people to set his love on, and he loves them because he chose them, and that's how you're saved. And these prostitutes begin to ask a follow-up question, well, then how do I know that God loves me? And he would present to them Jesus and the story of the gospel and the cross and Jesus dying for his people. And do you do you want that? Do you are you do you want to come to this Christ? And as they move towards him in faith, assuring them, you're not capable of wanting Christ if he hasn't chosen you. Yeah, we love because he first loved us. You're not capable of loving him unless he has loved you first. And so uh there was a breakthrough. And so I I trust that today our listeners would see this doctrine is not just merely theoretical or philosophical or something for the academics. It's it's gospel truth. And we can say, yes, we've chosen, but that's because he chose us first. And that removes pride, replaces it with humility, it removes uncertainty, replaces it with assurance, and uh gives us that knowledge that our salvation doesn't rest on us, it rests on God's unchangeable purpose.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

Yeah, thank goodness.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Yeah.

Wrap Up And Next Topic Preview

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Yeah, and so I I think it as a preview, we we're not done with this chapter. I mean, we've only talked on spoken on two. Yeah, and there's what, eight of them. So next time we're probably going to discuss a much more what another like many people would say, this is of course we believe God chooses some, right? But one of the things that Calvinists draw attacks from, you know, the most dedicated and vitriolic attacks come from from semi-pelagians of every stripe about this doctrine that they would call double predestination. And this is one of the even the divines know that this is a hard doctrine. So we're going to talk about that in depth next time.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

You've been listening to Catechizing Conversations, and uh, we trust that these conversations direct you to God's Word, direct you to the ancient creed of confessions of the faith, and ultimately direct you to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Until next time, the Lord bless you, and I'm not sure.