Campus Discipleship In A Secular Age: An Interview with Micah Natal of Disciple Makers

What happens when a former atheist returns to the college campus with the Gospel? We sit down with Micah Natal of DiscipleMakers to unpack how clear doctrine and real community take root in a place often defined by slogans, polarization, and noise.

Micah traces his story from hearing a professor call the Bible “half myth,” to Micah's preaching in a house church, to the providential leading that led him into full-time campus work. Along the way, he learned the practices that now shape his work with students: slow, careful Bible study; resisting “what does this mean to me” shortcuts; and letting the Word master you before you teach it. He also spotlights a surprising tension: while many campuses broadcast their ideologies, faithful witness can still win respect. At Lebanon Valley College, Disciplemakers is widely praised for hospitality, proving that conviction and kindness can coexist.

We also talk about the hunger rising among freshmen students for depth—questions about the Lord’s Supper, assurance, and Reformed theology—and why tools like the Westminster Confession and Heidelberg Catechism clarify complex truths without dumbing them down. Then we tackle an emerging challange: Artifical Intelligence. Micah names the real harms—lack of critical thinking, engineered “companions,” and dehumanizing misuse—and explains how embodied community, shared meals, small talk, and confession counter loneliness. The thread running through it all is the local church. Campus nights aren’t a substitute for membership, elders, and the one-anothering of the local church; students who plant roots in the local church now become contributors later.

If you care about evangelism, discipleship, and the next generation’s formation, this conversation offers practical guidance and hopeful stories. Listen, share with a friend who mentors college students, and if it helps you, leave a review and subscribe so others can find it.

Transcript

Meet Micah And The Reading That Shapes Him

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Welcome to Catechizing Conversations. My name is Sisko Victor, and glad that you joined us for this podcast today. I have a special guest with me uh this afternoon, and I'm glad that he's here, Micah Natal from the Disciple Makers Campus Ministry at Lebanon Valley College. Micah is leads the staff there at the Lebanon Valley Campus. Also is working over at the Elizabethtown College as well for Disciple Makers. So welcome, Micah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Hey, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Micah is also currently student at Metro Baltimore Seminary, and he's going to finish up his MDiv, Lord Willing, May 2026. That's exciting. Yes, I am looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Indeed it has. And I'm a masochist. Hopefully hopefully going back for my doctorate is the good.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

All right. Excellent. That's that's hey, you know, it's we're lifelong students.

unknown 1:29

Amen.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Whether in an institution or just continually reading. Mike and I were just talking before the podcast began and asking what books we've been reading, and you said you've been reading a lot. Yeah. I mean, as a student and as a campus minister, staying fresh. Is there a book that's the forefront of your mind that you're enjoying right now?

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yeah, there's a lot of different books that have been really encouraging. I think so far, one of the most encouraging books that I've been reading thus far has been Redemption Accomplished and Applied by John Mary. I think it's been great just to be reminded of not only the cost of my justification, but also just how just how faithful God is to adopt us unconditionally into his family based on the merits of Christ. And no one can take that away, right? We know that, right? That's not something that's foreign to most Christians, but it's just a great reminder that our our justification wasn't just done by the work of the Holy Spirit and Him drawing us and changing us, transforming us, but it's He's also the one who keeps us and applies the benefits and the blessings, like Ephesians 1 tells us, of us being in Christ and being transformed into his image. So I don't know. It's been it's been really encouraging.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Yeah, yeah. And I and as someone who's constantly mentoring students, it's a blessing when you're being refreshed by a work like that from you know, like they say, re read the dead guys, right? But those that have gone on before us and and that those truths you're inculcating and then you're able to to teach others and mentor others. So for our listeners, Micah, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and how the Lord has led you into college campus ministry?

Conversion Story And Early Campus Battles

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yeah, good question. So Yeah, I yeah, I was an atheist until I was about 17 years old, and by God's grace, he transformed not just He transformed not just my alcoholic parents and just parents that didn't really walk with the Lord, but also transformed my heart and my soul through their example and I mean so many, so much story that could be told in that, but by his grace, he he transformed them and also transformed me before I started college and I went to Alvernia University, and that's where I got my my undergrad in biology. And yeah, during that time, I was a fresh Christian and I had a hard time in campus ministry. It or well, in our campus, because it didn't have a campus ministry. The only thing that was on campus was it well, there was a campus ministry, but it was completely student-led. So imagine a campus ministry that is led by students that are progressive, that are not focused on the scriptures, they're just kind of getting together and having a fun time. They don't, they're not really doing anything spiritual, and if they are, it's kind of out there. So, yeah, I in college it was a journey, especially at Alvernia. One of the very things that we were taught in our first theology class, I remember our first theology class at Alvernia was the professor who walks in to the classroom with his new American Bible, and he goes and he says, So just so you know, half of this is a myth, and the other half is up to your interpretation. And I remember my first year of college being like, and and again, I was only I've only been a Christian for not even two years by then. So here's you know a respected professor that has a PhD, and he's saying that, and I'm over here like, Am I am I stupid? Like, it's this I I don't believe this is true, right? So him and I had a bunch of arguments in class and turned out to be that guy, but I think moving forward from there, that kind of dug that kind of that experience threw me into the fire per se. And and I got to really further start studying and reading books, and I'm like, what do I really believe? Because I wasn't getting anything on campus. So yeah, through that I really started doing evangelism and discipleship at Alvernia, just on my own. And I was connected to a local church at the time and in the area of Alvernia, so in Reading. And that's kind of the what began me doing ministry, and from there, I from there, this was 20 2018. My my dad started a house church based out of like the whole house church model. We were not confessional or reformed or anything like that. It was very much we we he was very inspired by like the Francis Chan, if you remember back then, you know, house church model. And so we he started a house church and and it kind of blew up, and it was really, really healthy for a really long time. And uh by the by the time he started in 2016, by the time I was 2018, I was at that point preaching every Sunday and doing the work of a pastor at that point, and my dad saw it fit, and everybody else in the congregation that they they wanted me to keep on preaching, and so I pastored that church 2018 to 2021, and at that point we had a building in Afro, which is where we lived, and and it was it was going really well till till I didn't. And long story short, we we we merged with another church, and there was a lot of yeah, just pain that came through that, but it was also just a learning experience, and that kind of led me to be in a position where I'm like, Lord, I don't know what you want me to do, I don't want to do science anymore. I was working as a scientist for for J, and I was like, I'm just I'm miserable. I'm I'm good at the job, it was it was good, but I just it just wasn't what the Lord is calling me into. And after a lot of time in prayer, and this is kind of how I came to disciple makers per se, but after some prayer, I you know, I don't need to clarify this, but this is just how it happened. God does whatever he wants. So he, you know, we were praying for a while, me and my wife, and yeah, out of nowhere, one night I I have a dream where I'm having a conversation with my now boss in the stream, and he's telling me, Hey, would you consider joining Disciple Makers? And I wake up and I'm like, what the heck is Disciple Makers? Right? And I'm like, why would I have a dream about this guy when I don't really know him? Like I I had met my now boss, Joel, maybe like three other occasions, like because he taught at the same young adult thing. I didn't know he worked for disciple makers. So, you know, I wake up and this thing's just on my mind. So I look it up. He's on staff with disciple makers. Disciple Makers is a real thing, so I'm like, okay, this is weird. Because I am, you know, my my parents or my my grandparents were part of like a really I would say word of faith, hyper Pentecostal area or theology per se. And for me, I always, you know, any of those things were suspicious, right? So, you know, I remember experiencing that and being like, oh, maybe, maybe I heard about it before, maybe it's it was in my mind and I had this dream, and it's it it doesn't mean anything. But really, it was it was from the Lord. I I can't explain it, I don't expect it again, neither do I think that's God's common way of communicating with us, but he does whatever he darn desires.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Aaron Ross Powell Well, from a scientist working with Johnson ⁇ Johnson to now being in full-time ministry is quite extraordinary and out of the ordinary. But it sounds like that you went through several circumstances that has formed you for this ministry. Being on campus where you had a famine of the Word of God, you did not have the Word of God being taught in an on-campus ministry coming from or some influence from, as you mentioned, word of faith influence. And so you you have seen that young people today, students in particular in college, are in need of good solid doctrine. And so for the person listening that has no idea what Disciple Makers is, what is Disciple Makers and what is its mission on college campuses?

Calling To Ministry And Joining DiscipleMakers

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Yeah, the mission is to reach the campus and reach the world with the gospel of Jesus Christ. And really our our desire to be on campus is to make disciples who make disciples. We want to make disciple makers. We want to not only proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to students who do not know Christ, but also lift up leaders or train leaders that are able not only to study God's word. So we we normally teach uh students how to do what what you and I will call basic hermeneutics, right? So we would teach them how to observe, interpret, and apply the scriptures. So what does the scriptures say? Is there anything repeated in the text, contrasted? So we do a lot of grammar work. We teach them, okay, how do you how do you really use the skills that you probably already know, but in studying the scriptures in a way that it isn't about just you, right? Because we we live in a culture that is heavily based on whatever you read, whatever you listen to, you have to make it about your circumstance and situation. It's it's it's always how do we contextualize everything. And we come to the Bible with those lens, and we're like, okay, I read chapter one of Ephesians. What does it mean to me? What do I like? And we're like, that's bad, that's bad Bible study. It it doesn't matter what you feel. That's not we're we're not there. So we we're teaching them what is it, what did the author say? What did he mean? Who is he writing to? What's the purpose that he that he is writing? What can we understand and and really interpret from the text based on us uh understanding the audience and putting ourselves in the shoes of the original audience? And then after we do all of the work, then we can get to application. How do we contextualize it? So we really want to teach our students to not only be masters of the word of God, but be mastered by it and and also teach them what it means to be a disciple of Jesus, but then teach them that you know, 2 Timothy 2, you know, 2 Timothy 2 2 of, you know, you are you were entrusted with the gospel, but you were entrusted with the gospel not so that you can hide it, but so that you can share and that you would entrust other faithful men with the gospel as well, and that they in part would uh forward and do that. And that's really the the goal of what we do.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

And I could speak uh from my experience working with students from Disciple Makers, that whatever you guys are doing, you're doing a great job. Because the young men and women that I have been around that are immersed in the Disciple Makers Ministry and right here in Lebanon County through Lebanon Valley College are young men and women who are word-focused, who are Christ-centered, and who have caught that vision, as you just said, not just to inculcate the word for myself personally and go about my life, but to disciple someone else, to evangelize someone else. And so the work that Disciple Makers is doing on these campuses is a vital work. Uh, how would you describe the spiritual climate among students on campus today?

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Yeah, praise God. Thanks for saying that. I mean, I think it's it's an encouragement for me to hear that because oftentimes you can get in your head of being like, oh, is it really is God really at work? And you know he is, but it that's encouraging to hear. Yeah, there's a lot of really great students in our campuses. Uh to answer your question, I think I think when it comes to Lebanon Valley College At least Lebanon Valley College is steeped in a culture of secularism, of I mean deep, deep leftist ideology. And I'm just gonna explain what that means. I and I I don't just mean politically or I mean like if you go to the campus, their ideology is is hanging in flags. Like the flags that hang on the campus is the LGBTQ flag, the the American flag, which I'm surprised is still there, and the Black Lives Matter flag. I don't know if it's still there. I I thought it it was. I it might be now the diversity and inclusion flag. I they they just started that as well, but it's it's heavily based on political ideologies, but also a hatred for Christianity because one of they they associate Christians with, I would say, the very popular hyper you know, right individuals that are very much saying things that you and I would be like that's not Christianity. That's not Christianity. So I think the the the climate is very polarized. However, I think I mean we've been at Lebanon Valley College. I mean, they they've been laboring their disciple makers before I even joined. So at LVC, I mean, we've been there for almost 10 years. So we we've kind of proven and shown, you know, what we're all about. That and I think that not only not only is our club on campus the largest club on campus, but also it's also the the club that the administration loves to brag the most about. Why? Because we tend to be the people that make the campus look good. You know, our students are the ones that that not only do really well, but are are very you know, are very hospitable and they want to make people feel welcome. They did a they did an entire newspaper article. It, you know, uh the campus has their own newspaper, and the whole article was on how welcoming our ministry is and how loving and how gracious we are as a ministry. So they the campus loves that there is a safe space, you know, quote unquote, yeah, for any student of any background to come and get to know God.

What DiscipleMakers Does And How

SPEAKER_01 17:49

I mean, what a testimony, because as you started that answer that you gave, you're saying, in a sense, it's a hostile environment. And then I think the listener needs to realize that is that men like you, women on campus and disciple makers, uh you you guys aren't on friendly territory. You're you're not like us as a church when we gather on a Sunday morning. The majority of people there are in unity on the fa in the faith. It's a friendly environment where you can preach the word and and get a few amens and and head nods. You're on a place as you s as you describe, you're in a place where there's a there's an underlying hostility, even if it's not overt. Nevertheless, the hospitality hospitality and the and the the way you have conducted yourself and the students are conducting themselves is a genuine witness of the gospel. Right. That this is what a true Christian looks like, not the one you've been characterized, been characterized by the media that is a bigot. Or people that believe you're made in the image of God, and we also believe in God's truth. And God's truth is is delivered in a way to save, to free, in a loving way. So I want to pause here and just share a brief story because it it connects directly with your ministry. When our church, Lebanon Valley Presbyterian Church, began in 2020, it began as a scratch work. And what that means is we did not have a mother church that you know sent 20 families to start. We started the scratch work from scratch, but we were planted by our presbytery, Susquehanna Valley Presb Presbytery. But right in the middle of COVID, we started our first worship service November 1, 2020. And you can imagine attendance was sparse in those early months. And I remember standing the foyer where we held church at the the foyer at the four or five two Ebenezer Road, New Covenant Christian School, where we rent. Space. And I would look out the windows and I'd wonder, is anyone coming to church this morning? And two cars would pull in, and out of each car would pile several young men from Lebanon Valley College who faithfully showed up to worship in those beginning months and beginning years of our church plant. And uh most of those young men were now I say young men because I had wondered, is Lebanon Valley College a boys-only school? Because there were no girls that came. But it'd be like five, six, seven, eight, ten young men. And I would just say those students were an immense encouragement to our congregation in the beginning days of the Lebanon Valley PCA church plan. And so if Tyler's listening and a young man named Dan, they were the driving force by inviting people to church in our church, and they did so. And we were always sad when it was break. You know, student had break in the spring or holidays because the church attendance went down considerably, because most of our congregation were students. So, Micah, from your perspective, why is it so important for college students to be connected to and invested in a local church, a church where the gospel is being preached, even while they're in this transient season of life as college students?

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Yeah, it's a great question. One of the things that we emphasize every every week, uh because we once a week on Thursday nights, we we have what what mirrors a church service, if you want to call it that. I more see it as kind of young adult teaching night. You know, there's there's worship, and then there's one of us on staff, there's a rotation and expositing the word, so we get to exposite the word, then they uh kind of discuss what we have gone through. Every Thursday night. I mean, it's really well attended, which I'm really thankful for. But what we remind them every single week is we're not a church. We're not a church. This is not substitute for a local church. If you do not attend a local church, you can't keep majority of the imperatives of the New Testament. You can't. You can't submit to elders, you can't actually be part of a community where there is, in essence, all of the things that we're called to accomplish in the New Testament. So not only are we commanded to do the one another one anothering, but we're also commanded to do strict commands by the Apostle Paul and and the rest of the New Testament writers that can only be done in a local church. So I think the quick answer would be we're commanded to, and and we in essence tell them that, but also as you make it a habit in this, you know, as you call it a transient season to prioritize church to serve, you're setting yourself up for when you do graduate, on what does it mean to be part of a of a community that you're not just a taker, but you are a contributor. And when you learn that when you learn that when you're in a church here and then go back home and do that, it's you you have years of training on already doing this. And there's there's students that that don't do that. They they just go to church when they come back home and they focus their entire time in in studies and just doing whatever they want to do. So then when they graduate, they're like lost. They don't know what it means to be a church member because they've never done it.

Campus Climate: Hostility And Unexpected Respect

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Yeah, and then what a dangerous thing to be involved in church while you're home and then go off to college. And just because you're a college, it's like, okay, I'm on break from the Lord's Day.

unknown 23:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Uh you know, that that's uh just asking for trouble spiritually.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

I have a a son who just went off to school and thankful that there's a few reformed churches in around the campus that he can become involved in and primarily become involved in one while he's away. Because four years is a long time. Yeah. And it would be the epitome of arrogance to think I can just uh avoid the means of grace that's a that's given on the Lord's day, gathering with his people, and yet maintain a relationship with Christ.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah. Right. Yeah, I think it was I think it was Augustine that put it this way that there's no salvation apart from the church. Now I don't think what he was saying when he said that was that you find salvation in the church, per se, as as the means of salvation, but that you you know, often they they saw salvation as the process, also intertwined with sanctification, right? So and and in essence, he's right. We we can't actually live the Christian life, be sanctified, and grow up to be like the Lord Jesus Christ in his likeness without being part of his local body.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Right. We we can't. That goes for a college student, that goes if you're elderly as much as possible. We need to be involved in a local, visible church. And if if anyone hasn't been to one of those Thursday night services that you hold, it really is encouraging. I I appreciate your invitation to come and speak to the students on one of those services. And just to see the vigor, to see the the love for the Lord, to see students on these campuses gathering and worshiping Christ, it really is encouraging. Because we're often told, you know, we're we're it's this idea of like youth these days, you know, youth these days are going astray. And certainly there are tremendous challenges, but we're also seeing, and let me ask you this because you're on campus, are you seeing a sort of awakening among students back to Christ and not and and also to the a traditional confessional faith?

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Yes. Yeah, I would 100%. Well, what I've seen the most is I think the the younger generation is tired of being told what they need to believe. Because not only is our media politics, this world telling us this is what Christianity is, this is what it's not, this is what you should believe, this is what you shouldn't believe. And there's so much false information that young people are just like, can I just go back to the original stuff? Can I just I just want to know and go deep. I don't want this nebulous ideology of Christianity. I don't want the the popular, just come to church. I'm gonna give you a feel-good message, and you're gonna go home and and that's about it. They're like, there's more than this. I mean, some of the students, I mean freshmen, I'm talking like 18-year-olds are coming to me being like, hey, I I don't know why my church doesn't do community more often. I don't know why, I don't, I've never thought about the Lord's Supper. Like, is this I don't think it's just a a symbol that we could just do whatever we want. I think it's deeper than that, right? And they're asking all these questions, and and they're saying, what about what about reform theology? What about Calvinism? I heard that that's that's heresy, you know. What is it, what does that mean? I'm just like, what do you mean, heresy? Yeah, so and you know, so a lot of these students are getting into deep waters theologically, partially because of TikTok and social media, which is like a double-edged sword. They're introduced to good doctrine and even just really stupid things, I'll be honest. But it's kind of opening their minds to okay, there's there has to be truth, there has to be something deeper, and I want that.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Yeah, I don't want superficial anymore. That's fascinating you say that. It basically we we we have so much information at our fingertips now, and young people, of course, more than older people like myself know how to access it. And and this is leading them to a desire to learn. You still have the trap, however, with the longing for something traditional, the longing for something rooted that we're seeing young people migrate into Roman Catholicism and Ethan or Eastern Orthodoxy. Right. Is that are you seeing that as well?

Why Students Need A Local Church

SPEAKER_00 28:28

To be honest, not as much as they want to make you think that they are. Okay. In the sense that I don't think there's a ton of students converting to Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. If anything, they're they're moving towards more Presbyterian, Anglican, even. I would say like those more of those circles, they they they just want more liturgy. I think they're they're looking for something that's liturgical, and I would say mainly men. I'm I think I that's what I've seen. Mainly men. Yeah. And they're proving that out. And I think it's I have my thoughts on that. I th I personally think is because church has become more effeminate. I I really do believe that it's all about when when you when you think about the the mainstream churches and how it's designed, and even some of their worship songs, they're very much all about lovey dubby Jesus. And you hear some of the words and some of the things that they say, and you're like, Man, I don't yeah, like I don't know how I feel about that as a man. Yeah, right. But then you, you know, and I think there's there's a culture online that's building that's like that, where like everything, I mean, I hear the students talk about all the time. It's like everything that's old is based, you know. They're like, oh yeah, historic, this base was awesome. Right. Or like, oh, these guys are are saying things that you know culturally isn't what most people would say. I love that. And it's like that could get dangerous, but also I think just most people are like, I just want to get back to traditional roots, but I don't think people are going as far as like Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, at least not to the extent of As we're being told. As we're being told. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

I think really this is a argument for and a warrant for a ministry like Disciple Makers and and what you are part of and what you're doing, is because there is a longing and there's a searching. There's a searching for something rooted, there's a search for something that's, as the young people say, based. But just because there's that longing doesn't mean you're going to wind up in a solid doctrinal space.

unknown 30:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

You still can get blown away by the wind and the waves of this world and of false doctrines. And so we need ministries like disciple makers that are going to point these young men and women back to the Word of God and to the true roots of our faith. With, I mean, how how much more rooted can you get than the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed and the Westminster Confession and so on? And and so that that brings us to uh this point, and that is one of the distinctives of our podcast, Catechizing Conversations, is a focus on the historic confessions of the Reformed faith. How have the confessions, whether it be the Westminster Standards or Heidelberg Catechism or others, shaped you personally? And how have they influenced the way you think about ministry and discipleship and what you're doing on campus today?

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Yeah, it's a great question. Well, two to two answers to that question personally, I mean, the Westminster, the Heidelberg, I mean, really just the all of the not only confessions, but just yeah, just the standards have been incredibly I don't know. I mean, they've been a blessing to my life. I was really angry the first time I read The Westminster because I was so annoyed that they were able to articulate a point so easily that I felt like it took three books for me to read. You know what I mean? Right, right. Like when it talks about justification and the way that they explain so many of these complex doctrines in such a way that you're like, oh yeah, that's that seems right. That's basic. Yeah, oh yeah, that's great. And I'm like, yeah, I read like four books on this and I couldn't understand it. Yeah. And you guys put it in such a way that's such a good point. So it yeah, it's it, yeah. I love the confessions, the catechisms are are amazing. I'm going through the Heidelberg catechism right now in my my personal devotions. There's a a devotional that goes through the Heidelberg, and it's been just a blessing uh for me to read. I I utilize the the Westminster standards often in my discipleship, in the sense that you're always going to get questions about justification or sanctification, or students are going to ask about assurance of faith. And I try to, I have a Westminster Confession of Faith in my backpack, and I always bring it out, and I'm like, hey, this is this is what what it what it says. I want you to to read this with me, and then also look at some of the passages together. And I think it's been, and I've gifted a ton. I know you gave me a ton of a Westminster Confession of Faith, and that's been a blessing. I've given them to a lot of our students, and they've said the same thing. It's like, wow, like they this really explains a lot of this weird doctrine, as they say, in a way that makes sense to me. And I can understand that there's a lot of scripture to it, I can further investigate if these statements are true. So yeah, I mean, I I use it often in our ministry and discipleship in my personal life as well. So yeah, I think it's I think the confessions have been a gift.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, and and I can relate when you say you're angry. I was angry for a different purpose. I was angry saying, Why am I finding out about this in my 30s? You know, instead of at uh 10 years old. You know, I was raised Christian, but didn't have the blessing of the catechisms. We thought catechism meant you were Roman Catholic. Same. You know, we thought confessing the Apostles' Creed meant you're a Roman Catholic.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

And so what a disservice to the church. But what a blessing now that we have them. And I I find it fascinating that you're using it at these catechisms and confessions as a tool to disciple. Because as you said, what could take months and years to try to work out some of these in-depth, complex doctrines? They have already done the hard work. Who some of these men were were really brilliant, you know, new Greek and Hebrew and Latin by 13 years old, you know, now they're ready for divinity. You know, but that doesn't make them right. What makes it right is it being based on the word of God.

unknown 35:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

And what is more important than a question of how can I know that I'm right before a holy God? How can I know that if I were to die, I would spend eternity with the Lord in in heaven and not in the depths of hell? I mean, what is a more pertinent question? And I find it interesting for yourself, being a science major, working with Johnson Johnson now in full-time ministry, I've met other young men that have had a similar trajectory. They went to school for a particular major and particular career and wind up in full-time ministry. And often it there, those are young guys that have been in disciple makers. So not that someone has to go into full-time ministry if you join disciple makers, but it really speaks to the depth of work you guys are doing.

Are Students Returning To Historic Faith

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Praise yeah, praise the Lord for that. I I think that is true. I think there's been a lot of students that have gone through our ministry that have seen the really the the beauty of what we do, but also just the power of God's word in in college campuses to really realize, man, I I want to be part of this. I want to be part of what God is doing because I saw the impact in my own life. Like a lot of this, a lot of a lot of now staff have been former students. So our staff team is full of individuals that came to Christ because of disciple makers. And then there's non-traditionals like me that never went to anything DM related and God somehow called them to the ministry in one way or the other. So it's but majority of our staff team are students that former students that were not Christians and came to Christ because of our ministry. So I feel I feel like they have that. They were bought into our ministry per se, not solely because they saw any luxury in it because there really isn't in the world standards, or because it's fun, because ministry is hard, as you know, but they they saw the impact and the transformation that they experienced in their own lives, and they're they're living testimonies of this ministry, right? Right. So it's been really awesome to see. So I think you're right. I think there's a lot of students that have experienced the impact that the ministry does, and they're like, yeah, I I wanted to have that same impact on other students who are just like me.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Yeah, so you so you're seeing that uh domino effect in a good way. What are some unique challenges of ministering to students today? You've mentioned a few of them, the idea ideologies that are opposed to the gospel that are very rampant on college campuses. But what else? What are the challenges that you're facing?

Confessions As Tools For Discipleship

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Yeah, I would say not only the ideology of the campus, I would say I'm also we're dealing with two other things that are I think are are very prevalent. I I would say the first thing that that we're dealing with on campus is a I would say like a really huge dependence on AI. So here's why I think it it matters. So I I'm not a person that's against AI or anything like that. I think it's it's a tool like everything else, and it needs to be used, and it can be used for the glory of God. But our students are so dependent on utilizing Chat GPT or any form of AI to give them not only answers that they desired to have, but they are utilizing AI to have them do a lot of their work that they should be doing on campus. And I don't I don't mean anything spiritual, but I'm talking more in their in their studies, which in sense is causing a lot of students to not critically think and not want to desire to go deeper into reading books. So now I've seen a what I emphasize a lot in my discipleships is is the the increase of desire to read books, because what they would rather go to AI to tell them, give me a summary of this article, give me a summary of this book, because that's all I need to know, versus the the the slugging through a book, as you and I know, and the I would say the the beauty of you arguing with the author as you read and figuring out, okay, why do I believe what he's saying versus versus not what what is the argumentation and almost like being able to discern someone's argument what gets you actually understanding how to have conversations, how to formulate an argument that is persuasive enough for someone to even want to listen to you. So I would say it has a lot of layers, but I think that's one issue that I can potentially see well I've already seen the the harm of it. And I I would say further than that it it it not only does ai is affecting some of the critical thinking but it's actually it's actually even making a lot of students lonelier. So now I I know those are how do I say those those are issues that are going to come down the pike and are slowly coming especially with the amount of damage that AI could cause. I mean there's I'll tell you a recent story that I that happened where there was there was an individual that confessed to his girlfriend about him utilizing AI to make you know inappropriate photographs of her. So he got a photograph of her put it in AI and an AI did made it into a anappropriate photo of her and and people are are are doing that which is not only sad and I would say disgusting but it's getting to the point where people are are being seen into objects and and really people are even making pornography out of other individuals that is causing people to not want to have relationships there's there's you know AI companions now too where like you can have like AI girlfriends and boyfriends and you can have somebody that is tailored completely to all your desires and likes to the points like why why would you want to go to the trouble of like getting to know someone well here we let me just encourage the listener here we have someone who really has their finger on the pulse of young people today.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

A lot of us can look and watch the news and and read books but you're working with young people you're working with college students and you're telling us right here you know just plainly this is a major challenge. And I I have to admit I wasn't expecting that to be your answer. You know I I thought maybe you'd you go further into how we're we're dealing with secular ideologies and so forth or promiscuity on campus or you know things of that nature morally but AI being a problem and I mean wow kind of take take my my breath away because we are at the beginning of this and yet it's it's moving very fast. And we know that these models have a ideology themselves. Yes I mean ChatGPT is a terrible theologian. But you're saying that there's a lack of critical thinking because of the emergence of AI as well as loneliness. Would you speak more to that?

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Yeah I would say yeah the lonely loneliness piece is is really when you're so entrapped by virtual relationships and having everything in your fingertips the moment that you have nothing else to prompt then you have nothing right so they realize oh I'm alone I don't have any friends I don't have any any physical relationships which I think is going to further expand our ministry as this continues to be a thing. Why? Because in our ministry we're building we're building community on campus. So and I and I've already heard it from students being like man I love the community on campus. I love that we we do stuff we have fun together it's not just about yeah it's not it's it's not just a it's not just we're all going to one event and that's it but we they're doing homework together they're reading scripture together doing stuff together they're having lunch and dinner and all this stuff together so they're like man It's not just a lecture sermon.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Yeah right it's real community it's life.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Yeah life on life and so I think that some of these students because they've been raised mainly I mean think about it like a lot of these a lot of these students were in middle school when COVID happened which to me it makes me feel old right like and I'm not I'm not old right like but it's like you know some of them are like oh I was me and my wife got married in 2020 and I have students tell me I was in seventh grade and I'm like oh my goodness seventh grade but I mean they were in middle school when COVID happened and every and all the shutdowns and and they were mainly in their homes they were mainly doing things online. So going from an online you know online teenage years to then getting to college it's a hard transition and there is going to be loneliness and not knowing how to interact with other people I mean we've been having to teach some students on how to properly use small talk. Can you believe that I would have never thought that that'd be something that we would teach students like how to how to how to embrace small talk how to how to look at other people as not just other individuals in the room but as people that you get to welcome in right so like how to be outer focus how to carry a conversation like we we're having to teach these things which I don't necessarily think was something that I would have ever thought would be something that we would have needed to to teach. So I think there's there's not only AI but like really COVID and how we've been so we've been so I would say not I don't I don't want to say entrapped but I I would say everything has gone so virtual that we have lost the art of proper communication and critical thinking and I think AI is even taking that a step further. So I think that's that's leading people into into feeling I don't know how to communicate with people I don't know how to keep a conversation it's awkward I'm stressed out I'm anxious so I don't want to start the conversation therefore it leads to loneliness. So we're like we're like wait hold on so in your mind beginning a conversation with some with someone causes so much anxiety that you want to throw up why because they've never learned what it means to actually begin a conversation and what makes something awkward versus what isn't.

The AI Challenge: Thinking, Loneliness, And Community

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Yeah I try take from what you're saying two things one real this really reinforces the need for the ministry that's being done the ministry of the gospel. Yep you're pointing people to a living savior not to a machine and the gospel then reconciles first our relationship with the Almighty God our creator but then reconciles us with one another. Yes and so we're not looking at each other as machines and you're the gospel is calling people out it's calling people together and and what a what an argument for the church right I mean I I'm glad you gave us that glimmer of hope that in the midst of this dark AI world that's emerging and taking over, you are seizing an opportunity that this is presenting and that is to bring the redemption and the healing of Christ in the midst of this confusion and this dark world. And you're teaching your you're discipling as you said not only the gospel but in these basic life skills. And so and the second thing I think if if the listeners hearing this today is the great need for for praying for you and for disciple makers you guys are in the thick of it on on these campuses and what a tragedy if we're not surrounding a ministry like this with our prayer and support.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

Yeah no amen I yeah it's been it's been a challenge and not just in the front of AI but also you mentioned this earlier but yeah definitely I can speak hours about other challenges that we don't we don't have time to address now but there's there's so many other challenges morally and and like you said with with how the school is progressive in a lot of ways that that makes it difficult not just and it's mainly for the students as they interact in in their classes with unbelievers with atheists and etc but I would say that I would say the something that's encouraging amidst all this the younger people the 18 year olds that I mentioned earlier that a lot of the freshman class I've seen an immense immense maturity and desire to know God and desire to know his word in that class more than some of the older students. And I think that's because they are getting tired of being told what they need to believe. They want to know God in a deep way and that's that's beautiful and that's encouraging and I and I think amidst all of the loneliness and and like you said AI issues I think this is the this is the time where the church has an opportunity to flourish because we're offering something that AI can't offer which is true community and more than that more than just community because community you can find in so many places but we're offering the the you know the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ people are dead in their trespasses and sins they they they have no hope they they have nothing to live for and we have the gospel that that that shares with us that that Jesus came and took our sin and died the death that we deserve so that we could have eternal life with him have relationship with with the Lord not only that but as he redeems us and transforms us we have relationship with one another as you were saying and and that relationship with one another is a community that they can't find anywhere else. So I think we're in a in a position as as the church right to be like all right well we're we're going to be the hands and feet like we we want to go and and bring students in and make them feel welcomed and and want to have them part of our community invite them to what we're doing get them to come to activities and events and I think there's I think the reason why students and this is this is more for the church right like as you're if you're as you're listening and and if you're a pastor or or or somewhere in in in the ministry of of the local church I think that one of the things that I've seen and I've heard from students that have graduated is the fact that the community that they get on campus they can never get in a church. And that's sad. That that really is wow in the sense that in the sense like okay in part yes you are inevitably going to have more community on a college campus when you all live in the same place and need at the same place right like that's obvious but I'm talking like so I've had students that have graduated that have gone to churches and and of course like some churches some of those churches they've gone to are are are more like mainstream and and and almost mega churchy so you'll you'll get some of that but what they've seen is there isn't a big culture of discipleship on a lot of local churches. There isn't a a culture of of having small group community where like they can feel like they're part of a community but it's very much I go on Sunday and I go home. See you next Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

Yeah yeah for 30 minute sermon. Yeah I mean what Micah you you're just giving us so many insightful things and thank you for challenging us as a church I mean because that what you said reminds me of something I heard uh Charles Swindah pastor say one time I think I was a teenager when I heard him say it he was uh ministering to a man in his church and the man said I I find more camaraderie with my buddies in the bar you know than those in the church. And what a sad uh state and and what a sad state if a ministry like Disciple Makers is providing community to these students and the church is failing in that regard. What a challenge we have. Micah you mentioned there's so many more challenges that and things we could talk about and hope you come back and we can do that. Because this has been really insightful. I would encourage our listeners to pray for Micah and for disciple makers those here in Lebanon County pray for disciple makers in uh right here on the campus of Lebanon Valley College you can look them up online and and not only pray for them but there's ways to also support the ministry right yeah absolutely and you'll you'll take that yeah I would I would love that dm.org slash give right yeah absolutely well thank you Michael for being with us yeah thank you so much I appreciate it well you've been listening to catechizing conversations and uh again pray for Micah Natal pray for his team the Lebanon Valley College Elizabethtown College and disciple makers serving all over the nation and various campuses again thank you for joining us and uh we look forward to sharing with you again soon. The Lord bless you